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18-11-2013, 05:36 PM #18361
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
- UK, Derby
And sorry, Sonson, again, I flat out don't agree. Much more so than with Far Cry 2. How anyone could ever believe anyone could live, had lived or would live in Columbia is completely beyond me. It's a cartoon, a theme park, hopelessly lacking in the necessary fine detail to convince - I see nothing there to convince me it's a remotely plausible world. There is no nuance or subtlety to any part of that game, whether you're talking about its combat, its scene-setting, its broader narrative or its thematic content. I think you're reaching with Far Cry 2, but I'm more than willing to entertain your points regardless and hopefully learn something from them because there's plainly something more to that game even if you and I would strongly disagree over what works and what doesn't. But Infinite, Jesus, no. It's a failure. It has no more depth than PS2-era JRPGs that think the mere mention of racism equals a searching debate on the subject, and no more characterisation than Liara in the original Mass Effect (hint: there is nothing more to Liara in ME1 than "Oh, Shepard! What is this thing you humans call... love?" and "Mother!"). Infinite has less depth to its combat than Doom. The world falls apart if you apply the slightest pressure: it's a profoundly lazy, slapdash piece of design (for crying out loud, Bioshock's gimmick only worked on the first playthrough, and Levine wants it to drive another game?).
God, I hate it. It just represents so many things I detest about current approaches to game design, and the things people seem to want to read into them. Bioshock 2 still had its flaws - it was a cash grab, it was built on top of a flawed and dated game - but it still eclipsed the first game, and it damn well obliterates Infinite. I started it back up again a while ago and while problems with the new DRM stopped me from getting too far, the first proper fight against a Big Sister (on Hard, with no bio-chambers) was more thrilling than anything in Infinite. And the story, jeez. Still one of the few game endings to make me openly cry - for starters, for how it says more in five minutes than Hideo Kojima's said in his entire god damned career.
Not buying Burial at Sea, and I'm not buying anything of Levine's until it goes on sale. I gave him a chance and he blew it. Not that it matters to him or anyone else in the slightest - just saying that I'm pretty sure this is one of the few times when I say I hate it and I almost, almost mean that word.
Last edited by Eight Rooks; 18-11-2013 at 05:56 PM.
18-11-2013, 07:04 PM #18362
It's not meant to be real, or plausible. It's a narrative absurdio extremis of several absurd, very real ideologies as a way of exploring certain themes. Bioshock II isn't remotely plausible either, guess that must be terrible too yeah? And yes, you don't have to like it, but to suggest it's lazy? That's lazy. You might not like what's in it, but this game is packed from top to bottom with mind blowing investment in effort, irrespective of how well it's realized or how much you like it.
You haven't actually interacted with any of my points. You've just basically said you think it's bad, and emoted about how bad you think it is, without even explaining why. It's lazy-how? Bioshock 2 is better-sure but again, why? It's a failure-because you don't like it?
If that's how you feel, that's fine. But there's nothing there for me or anyone else who didn't hate it to take away from that critique beyond that you didn't like it, several times over. It's odd that you crave subtlety and depth so much when you seem to be totally un-interested in engaging with my efforts to communicate it to you. Again, maybe I've done that poorly, who knows, but I think I put down enough there for you to engage with something, but you just ignored it anyway.
Last edited by sonson; 18-11-2013 at 10:58 PM.
18-11-2013, 07:42 PM #18363
I think looking at the top layer of the Bioshock games and seeing all the heavy handed stuff and giving up on it as unsubtle and witless is incredibly unfair. I don't know that anyone in particular who complains about it is doing that, as I'm not in their heads. But I feel, as Sonson said, that it's a series that deals with excess and exageration. Hyperbolic nonsense is its canvas and it's not done perfectly, either. But I think it's too easy to just say that some of the things it deals with are hyperbolic nonsense and therefore the game has nothing to offer or argue of interest.
This is not explicitly related because I do think there was more going on in Binfinite that the Comstock and Friends shell, but here: I rarely understand the critique that something is unsubtle. If it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for you. But lack of subtlety is often compared to shouting and I don't think that's right. More often than not Subtlety is like wordplay; it's fun and interesting and it takes you a moment to get what is being said and it demonstrates a skill of word-craft ... but the message itself is no better, no more nuanced for that. The art of hiding your message and burying it within your story and your mechanics in a way that requires careful consideration from the reader is an art ... but we have to understand what part of it is artistic. It's the act of hiding, not the message itself. Simply because it is artfully folded up in the rest of the work doesn't mean the message carries any more significance, weight, or worth. And it doesn't suddenly condemn works without subtlety.
Subtlety, too, can be an illusion created by how obvious something is to your subjective experience. Something less obvious to you but not-that-subtly included might seem quite clever if you read the time it takes to find it into the author's intent rather than your observational prowess ... and the reverse holds true for things that are more obvious to you than to others. This has been a somewhat long tangent, so let's close this. Binfinite still utterly aside, I'm baffled at how frequently people praise subtlety all on it's own. Myself included sometimes. On consideration it seems a thing worth praising in it's own way but not worth praising in opposition to it's opposite. A skeleton has as many and the same bones as it's former owner and yet critics will praise not just the flesh that hides them but the bones themselves a million times louder in a full cadaver. This seems unfair.
Last edited by gwathdring; 18-11-2013 at 07:44 PM.I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom
You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0
18-11-2013, 08:15 PM #18364
Just discovered I own the 1C Humble Bundle. I totally did not buy that. I have no records of buying it.
So it's up to you all to pick a game out of the following for me to play through
King's Bounty: Armored Princess
King's Bounty: The Legend
King's Bounty: Crossworlds
Men of War
Men of War: Red Tide
Men of War: Assault Squad GOTY
Apart from know that King's Bounty is fantasy and Men of War is set in WW2 (maybe? yes?) I know next to nothing about these games.
Don't fail me RPS."Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""
18-11-2013, 08:26 PM #18365
King's Bounty: The Legend gets my vote.
Oh wait, you wanted a reason for that? KB is more accessible, it's pretty, the turn-based tactical combat is solid AND the story is filled with batshit crazy moments. I would tell you more, but these posts on RPS are surely better than anything I could write.
18-11-2013, 08:49 PM #18366
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
19-11-2013, 02:45 AM #18367
800mb worth of download and here comes two new stuff that actually matters! guess what I'll spend the next 24 hours playingArt blog here.
Doodles poodles sheboodles
19-11-2013, 02:54 AM #18368
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
More Dark Souls, pvp now. Or rather, was. GFWL decided to stop working on me. Fuck. Hoping I find a fix, because despite the assholes you find online I was really enjoying it.
19-11-2013, 08:37 AM #18369
Goodbye other games.... (somehow I manage to play it in short bursts of 20-60 minutes, so i'm not neglecting the kids, the wife and the pets).
19-11-2013, 08:38 AM #18370
19-11-2013, 09:17 AM #18371
King's Bounty is a lot of fun and definitely worth playing for a bit but very few people can hack the necessary 80+ hours of grind necessary to complete it. And it isn't deserving of that amount of time in my opinion.
19-11-2013, 09:53 AM #18372
As a stealth fan, it's long overdue, but I've finally got around to playing The Dark Mod. The training mission is surprisingly in-depth, and I'm impressed by what I've seen so far - the Doom 3 engine has aged well. The only thing I don't like is their lockpicking mechanic, it feels slow and tedious; I wish they'd used one from the Thief games instead.
It boggles my mind as to why these guys can't release this as a standalone game. I feel guilty playing it for free, since it's something I would definitely spend money on. Perhaps because it's too similar to Thief, which might get them into legal trouble?
That said, does anyone know of any 'must play' missions that I should download?
19-11-2013, 10:14 AM #18373I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom
You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0
19-11-2013, 10:16 AM #18374
State Of Decay 2-3 hours,so far its interesting but feels kinda tedious. Getting tempted to install SWOTR 1 :o
19-11-2013, 11:11 AM #18375
FINALLY, after bouncing off the free version years ago, and after declining to get the HD version on Steam because I don't think it's the kind of game I'd want to sit down at a PC for, I'm getting into Spelunky (on PS Vita). It's a bit good, huh?
On PC, I'm trying to play Walking Dead but finding it pretty dull, with every "shocking" discovery telegraphed far in advance and some pretty inconsistent characters. I'm kind of disappointed, both since it picked up so many plaudits for its writing and because as an Idle Thumbs fan I like Jake Rodkin and Sean Vanaman.
So ... on PC what I'm actually playing (which so far is no less dull, but Jim Moon of Hypnogoria liked well enough for me to want to give it the benefit of the doubt) is Dark Fall: The Journal, which is a Mystlike horror game with a hotel full of ghosts. The puzzles so far have been pretty satisfying, which is the most important thing with this kind of game.
19-11-2013, 11:47 AM #18376
- Join Date
- Dec 2011
However, it is certainly the case that I know people who actually stopped playing Binfinite within minutes of actually getting involved in violence, because they simply didn't want to see those images again. (And these are people who have played quite a few FPSes in the past.) I have not a few FPS games under my belt, and I certainly gave considerable pause to buying Binfinite myself after seeing the screenshots and trailers of the action sequences. (I have not bought it yet, and probably won't, which makes me sad as the storytelling is apparently rather good.)
The issue, of course, is one of compulsion in storytelling. I'm not a big fan of gore on screen either (there are several films I've had to leave early due to not being able to cope with the unpleasantness on screen, and I actively avoid certain classes of film entirely), but I can see how the difference in complicity might be an issue. Watching Pan's Labyrinth and the violence in it is different from actively *performing* the violence in Binfinite. (It's entirely legitimate to not *want* to be the unpleasant person that Booker can be, judged by his acts in the game.)
As far as I know, there's less leeway in "alternate paths" in Binfinite than in some other recent games with "detailed" representations of violence - unlike Dishonoured, which also has somewhat excessive lethal combat rendering, you can't simply choose not to kill people. You are forced to be the kind of person who produces those kind of horrible effects. This is clearly intentional... and there is some artistic merit in it. But it is also bound to cause visceral rejection from people who are more sensitive sorts. (Hence the emotional tone of the repudiation of your post by Eight Rooks - they simply don't want to be forced to be that kind of person, and this taints the rest of the game experience for them deeply.)
19-11-2013, 12:28 PM #18377
So here's one a lot of people have never played - Lucius. Youíre the son of the devil and have to go around killing people in your six year old body without the others suspecting. It starts with a little tutorial killing and then drops me in my first proper level, where I go around the entire house clicking every single thing in the hopes that it's an inventory object. So it's a point & click adventure rather than a Hitman style game, and most of the objects are intractable yet service no purpose. In my first playthrough I spent most of my time smashing bottles (parents are like 'meh whatever' so no wonder my character turned out like he did) and ran around with my mother's panties. Most of the inventory items turned out to be useless, and there seems to be only one way to accomplish the goal at this time.
The voices are unenthusiastic, the faces are lifeless to the point where the maid dropped dead, the camera had a close-up of her face, and I said Ďwhatís the difference?í The one interesting spot couldíve been the devil but for the lack of subtlety. This fancy dressed dude just transports you to his fire lair, says Ďyo Iím the devil, go kill for meí and thatís that. He had such a scary face in the dark too, and when you shine a light on him his shadow has horns.
19-11-2013, 12:52 PM #18378
19-11-2013, 01:00 PM #18379
- Join Date
- Dec 2011
19-11-2013, 01:03 PM #18380
I guess for me, as mentioned earlier, violence is something which needs to be justified, and I think at length about instances in which it arises or is a key element, and as mentioned earlier Infinite passes that test for me. I, personally, find the concept or reality of violence distressing, it's what it means or stands for, rather than how it looks. To me,, killing people is killing people is killing people, irrespective of how nasty or sanguine it is visually.
And that's the rub for me. What makes Booker more unpleasant than any other video game FPS protagonist? I'd argue that it's that the game candidly informs you of the fact, and goes to narrative lengths to explore it. But every FPS game, by definition, is about being someone who kills hundreds of people, or being a Booker, a shoot first think later progress through violence type. If you're unsure about the idea of playing Booker, then I would suggest you don't play any other FPS either. And unlike Infinite, most of those examples have nothing whatever to say about how very violent a person you are playing.
End of the day, if you put Infiinite's violence in the against column, you still have plenty left over. If you put down 90% of others FPS's violence in the against column, you have no game left. So again, I'm very confused as to why Infinite, being really quite an exception to the trend of violence in its genre, gets singled out soley on the basis of superficial gore.
Violence can have it's aesthetic value too, and I genuinely think it's extreme and grotesque and exaggerated to enhance its surrounding themes. It isn't realistic violence, for example, even if it is graphic. Now I fully understand someone might not like that, and that's entirley fine, but if you have a level of disquiet about violence playing a game which is openly marketed as being violent is probably going to lead to some tension I would suggest.
RE Follow up post-I don't see the comparison. Cara was talking about a game which offers quite a unique option to be complicit in, implied simulation of Rape. Whereas there is nothing at all unique about a game which offers the chance to perpetrate mass violence. And if a game isn't offering the chance for you to see how unpleasant killing lots of people is, or not requiring you to think about it, then I think that's far more morally alarming personally.
Last edited by sonson; 19-11-2013 at 01:07 PM.