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  1. #18981
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    DAYZ standalone alpha

    Hahahaha I forgot how good/terrible it is. Three minutes after I walked into a first small coast village someone shot at me but missed. I hit f2 to surrender, maybe the guy will just leave seeing as I have nothing but a baseball bat and a flashlight, right? No, he approached me, looked at me sternly through his gasmask and shot me point blank. Now I may be a Mother Theresa reincarnation or something, but I'm sure I wouldn't have done the same. Not like that. In fact in my two weeks in DayZ mod I killed one guy in legitimate self defense after a short firefight, and regretted not shooting first at least four times. I confess I sinned too. First time me and the other guy crippled and robbed some guy in the forest( though we thought he noticed us and had a weapon... he didn't) but at least we left him bandages. But the worst thing I ever did was shooting a guy in the back when he checked his things. I really needed food. I felt so terrible after shooting him, I had to uninstall it and never played again. It's probably bad karma.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
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  2. #18982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanbuoy View Post
    I really don't consider this a spoiler, but here's the thing about the bridge: You don't want to go over the bridge, but below it. Blink to the foot of the bridge. There's a rope there. Unless I'm completely misreading which bridge you're talking about.
    No, it probably is that bridge - I was starting to suspect that I was doing it the "hard" (i.e. wrong) way just before I gave up and posted in this thread!

  3. #18983
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    Tried some of The Stanley Parable and, well, hmm. I admire the work that's gone into updating the mod and I'm not one of the WTF THIS IS NOT GAEM crowd, but I still have much the same problems with it as I did with the mod - I don't really think it says as much about the medium it's lampooning as it thinks it does. It's pretty slick - I haven't seen that much of it, but I loved the museum credits in particular - it's made me laugh out loud a few times (though tellingly, pretty much every single joke strikes me as much less funny on repeat plays), and it's refreshing to see anyone tackle themes like this but... I seriously don't think it does half the job of tackling them it could do. I just got fed up playing the "Do everything wrong" ending and quit because seriously, I have no idea what that was really driving at, and it's left that much of a sour taste in my mouth I'm not sure I want to see any more. (For context, if it helps, I despise a good deal of the post-modernist writing I had to sit through for university, and you couldn't pay me enough to watch Michael Haneke's Funny Games.)

  4. #18984
    Lesser Hivemind Node airtekh's Avatar
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    Risk of Rain reminds me a lot of Binding of Isaac, except y'know, with a lot less shit and blood. Also, it's a 2D side-on shooter as opposed to top down, but the general idea of collecting a myriad of different, wacky powerups so that you can progress is very similar.

    The Spelunky daily challenge continues to fuel my addiction. I think all roguelikelikes should have a feature like this, so people can compare notes on particular tricky/easy runs.

    It's funny how some days I get all the way to Hell and others I fuck up robbing the shop on the second level and get a faceful of buckshot for my trouble.

  5. #18985
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldvvvave View Post
    DAYZ
    We're too moral for this game. I'm going to get it with my brother so at least they'll be someone to avenge me when my compassion gets me killed. The few moments when things do work out are worth it though.
    Last edited by Drake Sigar; 31-12-2013 at 03:58 PM.

  6. #18986
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Just had my first fight with the flagship in FTL. It's a broken design. I don't care if other people have defeated it, if they've done it on normal or whatever, the whole thing feels like it's the game cheating, which I feel happens way too much and I've only been playing it for a few hours. It's an intoxicating game that draws you in and builds up so much good will, but the majority of the time when I've died I've felt like my skill has had zero impact on my demise and as a result my good-will is instantly removed. As the only other rogue-like I've played is Binding of Isaac, my comparison is thus; you can win that game with 1 heart. It's hard, really hard, but it's possible. You might get crap upgrades (or even downgrades), but if you're a competent enough player you can make the best of what you have. Obviously some chances are better, but incredibly rarely does the game feel like it's intentionally screwing with you.

    With FTL, I feel like when the game decides I'm done, I'm done and there's nothing I can do. It's not a fun feeling to lose because you feel like there's nothing you can do. It's a shame because the game is, for the most part, really enjoyable, but on top of this ill-feeling, combat is incredibly monotonous and depending on your run you're not going to have any chance to remedy that.
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  7. #18987
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    If this is the first time you fight the flagship, I totally understand that it might feel hopeless. Regardless of how you feel about it, you can get better and you will be more prepared next time. A lot of it is down to luck, yes, but making the best of what you've got is where your skill comes into play.

    Got to 55 seconds on Hexagonest in Super Hexagon, seven seconds over my previous best. I'm beginning to think that knowing how to move your eyes is more important in this game than knowing how to move your fingers. Success lies in always looking one obstacle ahead, which means that on higher difficulties, you have to queue the next movement into your working memory to be made a fraction of a second later. The game requires constant working memory updates and executions of action plans to be made simultaneously, which is not unlike psychological tests that measure correlates with intelligence such as the n-back task.

    It might not feel like it, and I'm sure it wasn't the intention, but the fast pace of Super Hexagon nicely illustrates how your brain and body are working together like an operator and a machine, and that the two are not, in fact, unified at every instant.

  8. #18988
    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    Just had my first fight with the flagship in FTL. It's a broken design. I don't care if other people have defeated it, if they've done it on normal or whatever, the whole thing feels like it's the game cheating, which I feel happens way too much and I've only been playing it for a few hours. It's an intoxicating game that draws you in and builds up so much good will, but the majority of the time when I've died I've felt like my skill has had zero impact on my demise and as a result my good-will is instantly removed.
    My thoughts almost exactly. FTL is so close to a perfect game that it's all the more frustrating when it falls apart. Got it at launch, gave up shortly after. The extremes toward which your luck can break have been set too far (in my opinion). A good roguelike should create tough challenges, yes, but for the most part you should have multiple tradeoffs to make that allow you to scrape by. The randomness should create unexpected situations, not sudden impasses. With FTL, it started to feel like it was easy to make a "wrong" move very early in the game but have no way to know it until close to the end. That's not challenge, that's a lack of feedback.

  9. #18989
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    With FTL, I feel like when the game decides I'm done, I'm done and there's nothing I can do. It's not a fun feeling to lose because you feel like there's nothing you can do. It's a shame because the game is, for the most part, really enjoyable, but on top of this ill-feeling, combat is incredibly monotonous and depending on your run you're not going to have any chance to remedy that.
    I made a post last year not different from this one, saying how I was feeling powerless against the random element in FTL, that was not long before I finished the game for the first time. It's something that should wear off as long as you back down when you're feeling like the game is deliberately screwing you (it's not, it's in your head), and go back to it when you feel like it.

    And that's because (read until the post until the end)

    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    A good roguelike should create tough challenges, yes, but for the most part you should have multiple tradeoffs to make that allow you to scrape by. The randomness should create unexpected situations, not sudden impasses. With FTL, it started to feel like it was easy to make a "wrong" move very early in the game but have no way to know it until close to the end. That's not challenge, that's a lack of feedback.
    You feel that way because you make mistakes and you don't even realize, or maybe you thought "duh that's a setback, but maybe I can still make it". And you might be able to, if you're lucky, but if you're not "hasta la vista baby". Sometimes you make mistakes because you don't know what outcomes your actions will have in different situations, sometimes you simply have to be taught that some things are not acceptable. The game has a harsh way to make the player become ruthlessly efficient. It's just a matter of sticking with it, I can guarantee anyone with enough interest and/or patience can make it on easy.

    I know because I made it without ever really becoming a great player, I stopped playing it when I figured out the unlocks were far too complicated to achieve without huge strokes of luck or following guides.
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  10. #18990
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    You feel that way because you make mistakes and you don't even realize, or maybe you thought "duh that's a setback, but maybe I can still make it". And you might be able to, if you're lucky, but if you're not "hasta la vista baby". Sometimes you make mistakes because you don't know what outcomes your actions will have in different situations, sometimes you simply have to be taught that some things are not acceptable. The game has a harsh way to make the player become ruthlessly efficient. It's just a matter of sticking with it, I can guarantee anyone with enough interest and/or patience can make it on easy.

    I know because I made it without ever really becoming a great player, I stopped playing it when I figured out the unlocks were far too complicated to achieve without huge strokes of luck or following guides.
    But what you just described was exactly the same thing: 'a lack of feedback'. That's precisely what making a mistake and not knowing that it's a mistake for ages is. You just described it as a positive thing whereas Mcaffrey described it as a negative thing, but you're both describing the same thing. So clearly 'just sticking with it' won't help because they've already hit the part you liked and found it unenjoyable.

  11. #18991
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    I've been... kinda enjoying the first couple of hours of Path of Exile. Really wasn't expecting that. It's odd, because I don't like phat lewtin' dungeoncrawlers much, I was bored to tears by Torchlight II, and I'm openly critical of any game which is basically "<old game X> was the absolute pinnacle of its genre; now all we need to do is remake it every few years with More Stuff and higher resomolutions". Oh, and the juvenile emphasis on gore is kinda off-putting.

    And yet for all that, I'm really quite impressed so far. PoE may be explicitly trying to reinvent, or rather remarket the wheel but it's just so open about that. It has a very narrow focus but it's completely aware of that and so much of the game feels really finely tuned as a result - the difficulty curve, the rhythm of the combat (animations, FX, dice rolls, kills etc.), the pace of exploration (how quickly the maps open up, how big they are, how distinctive)...

    Of course I've only played a couple of hours, so I might completely change my mind, but Christ, while it's not without its downsides - it's yet another phat lewtin' dungeoncrawler, after all - it's already proved far more engrossing for me than the whole of Torchlight II. Really, really wasn't expecting that.

  12. #18992
    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    The game has a harsh way to make the player become ruthlessly efficient. It's just a matter of sticking with it, I can guarantee anyone with enough interest and/or patience can make it on easy.
    I think this is what it comes down to: I have the patience for the game, but the game is just not the one I want to spend it on. Life is short and I never felt like it had done anything to earn my devotion personally; it got very repetitive very quickly, and gave no meaningful feedback except in aggregate.

    Dark Souls has the same learn-by-dying method, and while not exactly my favourite game, it still rewards me (with its environments, with new knowledge about an enemy or an item) for taking risks, and usually does it as soon as I die. I die, and I can say, "Well, won't do that again." The closest FTL usually comes is, "Well, did something wrong, at some point between there and the beginning." I don't want to go back and have to debug my playthroughs. That's not fun, for me. Where Dark Souls is mysterious and laconic, FTL just felt opaque and uncommunicative.

    But really it comes down to taste. Of course I believe you when you say you enjoy it, and I can see why, so I guess all I'm saying is that I'm not the sort of player FTL's designers were trying to appeal to. I just think it's because of a lack of something (by accident/they couldn't be arsed), rather than an explicit choice.

  13. #18993
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    But what you just described was exactly the same thing: 'a lack of feedback'. That's precisely what making a mistake and not knowing that it's a mistake for ages is. You just described it as a positive thing whereas Mcaffrey described it as a negative thing, but you're both describing the same thing. So clearly 'just sticking with it' won't help because they've already hit the part you liked and found it unenjoyable.
    Ages? have you played the game? the average playthrough is usually less than 2.5 hours and often less than 2.

    Everybody has experienced the frustration of not being able to go through a certain sequence in a game despite trying a gazillion times, giving up cursing the game, the people who wrote it, their ancestors and progeniture, then some time later going back to it, and BANG, it's done and how could it possibly be so much trouble?

    That's what they are describing, not lack of feedback. In FTL there's permadeath and randomization so they're almost never playing through the exact same sequence, and they have to start from scratch. That, and not there being much room for any stupid mistake, is where 'harsh' comes from, although it doesn't really compare to playing any classic roguelike and losing a character you've played and built for dozen of hours (it was still your fault, probably).

    Most people win their first game within about 10 hours, without a need to check a guide or other form of spoiler, assuming they play on easy.
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  14. #18994
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    Quote Originally Posted by postinternetsyndrome View Post
    Haha yes. While I find the game enjoyable, the voice acting is hilariously atrocious.
    It's really odd - everything which seems reasonably charming and 'in place' in WoW sounds so utterly TERRIBLE in Hearthstone.

    It's like a badly made WoW Soundboard - it's EXCRUCIATINGLY bad - tho the card game seems OK (I'm no card game expert - I've played a bit of one of those basic MTG games on Steam and that's about it)ish

  15. #18995
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Casimir Effect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    I've been... kinda enjoying the first couple of hours of Path of Exile. Really wasn't expecting that. It's odd, because I don't like phat lewtin' dungeoncrawlers much, I was bored to tears by Torchlight II, and I'm openly critical of any game which is basically "<old game X> was the absolute pinnacle of its genre; now all we need to do is remake it every few years with More Stuff and higher resomolutions". Oh, and the juvenile emphasis on gore is kinda off-putting.

    And yet for all that, I'm really quite impressed so far. PoE may be explicitly trying to reinvent, or rather remarket the wheel but it's just so open about that. It has a very narrow focus but it's completely aware of that and so much of the game feels really finely tuned as a result - the difficulty curve, the rhythm of the combat (animations, FX, dice rolls, kills etc.), the pace of exploration (how quickly the maps open up, how big they are, how distinctive)...

    Of course I've only played a couple of hours, so I might completely change my mind, but Christ, while it's not without its downsides - it's yet another phat lewtin' dungeoncrawler, after all - it's already proved far more engrossing for me than the whole of Torchlight II. Really, really wasn't expecting that.
    Is there a reason you seem to hate every game or go into every game wanting to hate it? Did a game go all Batman on your parents or something? In the months since you've been posting here I can't remember you liking a single thing so just wondering if you should get a new hobby. Like jigsaws. Or taxidermy. Something where it's hard to be disappointed unless the squirrel's arse falls out before stuffing time.

    I'm continually amazed by how people forget what a minefield of shite that gaming was in the past. While modern games perhaps do not reach the same heights as those in the past, the mean quality is better for many genres. Let us not forget the part of the '90s where the RPG was dead to all but the Japanese and Germans; meaning they featured either angsty, androgynous kids or systems so tedously complex that suicide was a preferable option. Or those when the adventure genre was pronounced dead. The most derided games today tend to be things like Call of Duty XX or AssCreed _. Yet I know I'd prefer to play one of those than one of the cheap C&C knock-offs that plagued the late '90s, or one of the GTA3 knock-offs from the '00s, or any puzzle platformer ever. Or Zelda. Fuck Zelda.

  16. #18996
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    I beat Hexagonest now. Hooray! Onto Hyper mode. But now the screen is spinning so fast that the segments stop moving smoothly and jump a few pixels ahead every frame. When you've stared at a screen so intently as with Super Hexagon, this suddenly becomes obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    It's really odd - everything which seems reasonably charming and 'in place' in WoW sounds so utterly TERRIBLE in Hearthstone.

    It's like a badly made WoW Soundboard - it's EXCRUCIATINGLY bad - tho the card game seems OK (I'm no card game expert - I've played a bit of one of those basic MTG games on Steam and that's about it)ish
    Isn't that just the incongruousness messing with your head? Hearthstone is the only thing Warcraft-related that I have ever touched, and I really have no idea what about it is so terrible.

    Well, except the Murlocs. They clearly made those sound as disgusting as they possibly could.
    Last edited by LTK; 01-01-2014 at 03:08 AM.

  17. #18997
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    I'm continually amazed by how people forget what a minefield of shite that gaming was in the past. While modern games perhaps do not reach the same heights as those in the past, the mean quality is better for many genres. Let us not forget the part of the '90s where the RPG was dead to all but the Japanese and Germans; meaning they featured either angsty, androgynous kids or systems so tedously complex that suicide was a preferable option. Or those when the adventure genre was pronounced dead. The most derided games today tend to be things like Call of Duty XX or AssCreed _. Yet I know I'd prefer to play one of those than one of the cheap C&C knock-offs that plagued the late '90s, or one of the GTA3 knock-offs from the '00s, or any puzzle platformer ever. Or Zelda. Fuck Zelda.
    Bravo.

    I have nothing against criticism; you can't help not liking things you don't like. But I am likewise amazed by how many people see utter crap all over both the AAA and indie scenes (because it's all hipster backwash now, or something?) when the average quality really is quite appreciable comparatively speaking. We've gotten really good at making games, and it makes me sad that so many gamers get so grumpy despite that.


    That said, I don't see what was wrong with Eight Rooks's post. It's kinda unfair to go off on him like that. He said he LIKED POE. I suppose the post had a rather negative tone, but I really don't think Eight Rooks is particularly parade-rain-on-y so ... er... yeah.

    While I'm at it. I really, really didn't like it. I find the whole Diablo-alike genre miserable--but my sister and her boyfriend love it to pieces after having gotten board of Diablo III and jumped ship some time ago. I took one look at the skill/talent tree thing and thought to myself "I am too compulsive not to try to understand how to get at least a relatively optimized build on this nightmarish contraption ... but I'm far too damn bored to enjoy this particular variety of gaming minutia." Goodbye, POE!

    I don't like trash mobs. I get so FRUSTRATED when a game forces them on me. In Dragon Age I spent a lot of my time playing immensely ticked off because I loved the characters and the story and some of the more tactically interesting fights (here meaning those rare not-quite-a-boss-fight fights because the boss fights were even worse than the trash mobs in terms of boredom only you died if you you screwed up or didn't have enough potions OH JOY) ... why the game insisted on bandying about it's least interesting enemies and least interesting systems as though they were the most important part of the game I cannot fathom. Designers? Don't do that. Save trash mobs for action games.

    I also, like many games, have a love hate relationship with leveling up. Leveling up is AWESOME. It feels great. I want to do it a lot. But ... starting out at the bottom is not awesome. Well, narratively it can be awesome. But a lot of the time, it is not mechanically awesome. POE, for me, was the worst of these two things--I felt some of the most crippled and boring I've ever felt as a low-level character and I had to deal with a bunch of pointless trash mobs without a teensy bit of interesting PC behavior to dish out in my un-leveled-up state. Designers, please for the love of god don't do that.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 01-01-2014 at 03:56 AM.
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  18. #18998
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    Is there a reason you seem to hate every game or go into every game wanting to hate it?
    I can think of one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
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  19. #18999
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldvvvave View Post
    I can think of one...
    Okay, I admit that gave me a chuckle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    Is there a reason you seem to hate every game or go into every game wanting to hate it? Did a game go all Batman on your parents or something? In the months since you've been posting here I can't remember you liking a single thing so just wondering if you should get a new hobby. Like jigsaws. Or taxidermy. Something where it's hard to be disappointed unless the squirrel's arse falls out before stuffing time.
    I like plenty of games. What, do I have to list some of them? I'm just not interested in a mutual OMG THIS GAME I'M PLAYING IS AMAZING / OMG THIS GAME I'M PLAYING IS AMAZING TOO!!!11!! the way so many internet commenters (or, well, people in general) seem to be.

    I've got more than a hundred PC games installed right now and I like something about all of them. I can also pick quite a few of them to pieces and see nothing wrong with doing that. Christ, I could happily write essays tearing my favorite games of all time to pieces - I consider Shadow of the Colossus a masterpiece that brings tears to my eyes, but I don't think showing willingness to poke holes in it using pretty harsh language makes me a grouch, and it depresses me to dwell on how many people seem to disagree with this.

    I went into PoE because it was free, I was curious why so many people were raving about it and wondered if I'd be able to enjoy it anything like as much. I also think you can make a really good argument that phat lewtin' dungeoncrawlers or Diablo-alikes or Roguelikes or whatever you want to call them are increasingly propped up with nothing more substantial than more items and monsters with bigger life bars, in much the same way Angry Birds fans want nothing more challenging than new level packs until the end of time. I don't find those two points of view mutually exclusive.

    I was surprised that even though a few hours of PoE didn't have me falling on my knees shouting "Oh, Jesus, I was wrong to be so dismissive", it did hook me in a way that Torchlight II, say, did not. I couldn't really put my finger on why, and that intrigued me. I'm sorry I couldn't articulate that as something along the lines of OH WOW THIS PATH OF EXILE GAME IS SO AMAZING I'M ENJOYING IT SO MUCH I HOPE SOMEONE ELSE LIKES IT AS MUCH AS I DO RIGHT NOW.
    Last edited by Eight Rooks; 01-01-2014 at 11:55 AM.

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