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  1. #19021
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    There's not much of an end game in these though. Once you learn the rules its just about making the best use of them that you can along with whats available. That's why so many people are big into the draft (arena) format. There's more of a challenge to be had there.

    Also, playing in draft means you remove all accusations of pay2win. You're all on level ground in the draft because you all payed the same entry fee.
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  2. #19022
    Lesser Hivemind Node postinternetsyndrome's Avatar
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    Unlocking the basic cards for the classes is a bit of a grind, sure, but it shouldn't take more than a couple of days really, and if you are having problems against human opponents you can unlock by playing in the training mode I think.

    As regards specializing in classes: There are a bunch of really good neutral cards (that all classes can use) that pretty much makes up half of all good decks anyway, even at higher levels. Crafting common cards costs 40 dust each, so you can make some of those mainstays quite soon after getting started.

    Sure, if you want to make the really fancy decks your are going to have to play a lot, or pay a lot, but overall there is plenty of fun to be had without jumping through too many hoops.

    And as Jesus_Phish says, arena is a - sort of - level playing field. I never buy packs with my earned gold, I always save up for arena entry instead. This might get me fewer packs in the long run, but it's the most interesting way to play I think, and there's the potential to earn back the whole entry fee and more.

  3. #19023
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    There's not much of an end game in these though. Once you learn the rules its just about making the best use of them that you can along with whats available. That's why so many people are big into the draft (arena) format. There's more of a challenge to be had there.

    Also, playing in draft means you remove all accusations of pay2win. You're all on level ground in the draft because you all payed the same entry fee.
    It also works when you have more going on in the table-game and a finite set of cards. Board/card games don't really need and end game.

    Most of these sorts of things just don't have enough going on outside the specific rules of the cards to really function well and in a balanced way on a small card set. Netrunner comes close. Magic, Yougioh ... those games are thoroughly about the cards/decks and not the table.
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  4. #19024
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Finally finished my first run of PoE as my Duelist Blender. Very much enjoyed it, but in the mood for something more ranged and spelly. So gonna shift to Torchlight 2 while I do some research on good Witch builds

    And on the console front: Yay, AssFlag!
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  5. #19025
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    It also works when you have more going on in the table-game and a finite set of cards. Board/card games don't really need and end game.

    Most of these sorts of things just don't have enough going on outside the specific rules of the cards to really function well and in a balanced way on a small card set. Netrunner comes close. Magic, Yougioh ... those games are thoroughly about the cards/decks and not the table.
    Netrunner will go the way of Game of Thrones though, it will end up with an absolutely massive card pool. I've collected every expansion for Netrunner so far and it's already getting to be a big pool. Though I certainly agree that right now, it's much more about whats on the table. You don't really get the anti-deck in Netrunner because you can be a good enough player to get past the idea of another deck being able to absolutely deconstruct your deck.

    At least with Magic, you're most likely going to be playing draft or limited, where limited restricts the legal cards to the current expansion, core set and the previous expansion and draft acts the same way arena does.
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  6. #19026
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Netrunner will go the way of Game of Thrones though, it will end up with an absolutely massive card pool. I've collected every expansion for Netrunner so far and it's already getting to be a big pool. Though I certainly agree that right now, it's much more about whats on the table. You don't really get the anti-deck in Netrunner because you can be a good enough player to get past the idea of another deck being able to absolutely deconstruct your deck.

    At least with Magic, you're most likely going to be playing draft or limited, where limited restricts the legal cards to the current expansion, core set and the previous expansion and draft acts the same way arena does.
    I already think Netrunner's losing ground becasue of the LCG model. The card pool is too big and not very well segregated such that various new and interesting mechanics can be added and removed in a plug-and-play sort of way. The card design is nicely subtle for an LCG/CCG, but the game deserves something more robust. It really needed a more Dominion/Thunderstone type model because the table game is so effective and could be the main attraction if they'd been less aggressive with the LCG side of things. Card pool on it's own isn't a problem--but there needs to be some sensible way to divide it up and make the various sets more distinct and mechanically engaging to really do justice to the quality of the game.

    But they went full LCG with it, aggressively pushing weakly themed sets with subtle to no mechanical evolution, stretching and expanding the concept to the delight of deckbuilders while leaving players like me exasperated at the tedium. Less exploitative than CCG, but shares all the design problems of a CCG nonetheless. Netrunner deckbuilding is all well and good, but they weren't careful enough (or generous enough with the base set) to do a non-deck-building variant proper justice. Mage Wars really outclassed Netrunner in that sense and it's making plenty of pretty pennies on it's expansions all the same! They wisely decided to sell their robust table game as a table game rather than a card game--you can still buy all the bits and extras and deck-build ... but that's all properly set up as extra business for the dedicated. With Netrunner, that's primed to be the default play state and it's a crying shame.

    Note the fact that Mage Wars literally requires a board and more table space isn't terribly relevant here. Netrunner can take up a hefty chunk of space, too, and they are both feeding off the best beats from the life and times of CCGs to create the bulk of their designs. For someone like me, I look at a data pack and rather than weighing the individual cards to see if the set is overall worth the money as a deckbuilder might I see a bunch of cards with almost no connection to each other spread exploitative across all of the different factions and a whole bunch of different play styles with the rare new mechanic shunted into the middle of a data pack where it's surrounded by chaff rather than done justice as a modular expansion.

    Netrunner needed expansions and care so that BOTH the deckbuilding and table gaming aspects could work side by side and feed off each other. What we got was data packs and a great table game crippled by it's admittedly (for those into that kind of thing) equally good deck-building half.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 02-01-2014 at 12:32 AM.
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  7. #19027
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    I already think Netrunner's losing ground becasue of the LCG model. The card pool is too big and not very well segregated such that various new and interesting mechanics can be added and removed in a plug-and-play sort of way. The card design is nicely subtle for an LCG/CCG, but the game deserves something more robust. It really needed a more Dominion/Thunderstone type model because the table game is so effective. Card pool on it's own isn't a problem--but there needs to be some sensible way to divide it up and make the various sets more distinct and mechanically engaging to really do justice to the quality of the game. But they went LCG with it. Less exploitative than CCG, but shares all the design problems of a CCG nonetheless. Netrunner deckbuilding as all well and good, but they weren't careful enough (or generous enough with the base set) to make do a non-deck-building variant proper justice. Mage Wars really outclassed Netrunner in that sense and it's making plenty of pretty pennies on it's expansions all the same! But they wisely decided to sell their robust table game as a table game rather than a card game--you can still buy all the bits and extras and deck-build ... but that's all properly set up as extra business for the dedicated. With Netrunner, that's primed to be the default play state and it's a crying shame.
    Netrunner plays brilliantly though that I don't think it's that big of a problem. The mechanics of it are great. I think deck building might get in the way of that a bit, like it did with the GOT game. They managed to bring in new rules to that with its expansions, so they can probably do it here too.
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  8. #19028
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Netrunner plays brilliantly though that I don't think it's that big of a problem. The mechanics of it are great. I think deck building might get in the way of that a bit, like it did with the GOT game. They managed to bring in new rules to that with its expansions, so they can probably do it here too.
    There's a lot missing from the base set. A lot of tactical avenues that are somewhat paltry or entirely missing (Bad Publicity is in the rulebook and a nice counterpart to Tagging but doesn't show up until now, the second Cycle of data packs). It's fun to play, but it feels crippled. I'd have rather paid more out of the gate for a more definitive version of the table-game. As it stands I have this 3/4s ready, fun and suggestive but not-quite-there-yet game and oodles of cards from the first few data packs I sprung for and still some things missing in order to properly balance and tweak the game so that it contains everything it needs without being overcomplicated in a deck-building-less environment.

    They don't sell good, well organized expansions. It's very frustrating. I can't easily look at a datapack and think Ok, this would be great for these kinds of decks, these factions, these kinds of players or similar. I have to review it card by card because it's so disjointed. This is fine for deck-builders, but ... what frustrates me so much is that the alternative is STILL fine for deck-builders. They picked the easiest, cheapest, laziest release route short of actually making a lazy, poorly designed game. That sounds pretty harsh, so I want to be clear that I like the game and I think there's a lot of good design even in the data pack cards. But BOY is it frustrating to feel like a second-class customer when I love the core mechanics of the game so much and when catering to me would in no way hurt their ability to cater to deck builders. I'd point to Arcane Wonders again as an example of much better form in this department.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  9. #19029
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    I finished Mirror's Edge without shooting anyone, although I did kick a few guys off buildings so that's not exactly a moral victory.

    There are a lot of games where I feel like I can play them vicariously through reading articles about them, which makes it easier for me to justify not buying games that everyone says is great because I've read enough about them that I have a pretty good idea of what the experience entails. Like Papers, Please. Usually when I play a game that I've been putting off like that, it turns out to provide a much richer experience than I would have been able to read about, which is exactly what you'd expect given the possibilities of the medium. That happened with Shelter, which exceeded the expectations that I had of the game based on the reviews. But in the case of Mirror's Edge, the experience matched the one I had in my head almost perfectly, given all that I've read about it. I would be lying if I said it was disappointing, but still I feel like something is missing. Is that weird?

  10. #19030
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Similar's Avatar
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    30+ hours into Mass Effect 2 and ... I decided to restart ... with Mass Effect 1. Sometimes I doubt my sanity, more than usual.
    Mostly I got annoyed by the picture of Kaidan on Shepard's desk, but I also realized that none of the Cerberus DLCs were installed. I thought that was the point of logging into the EA thing, but apparently there isn't really any point to that.

  11. #19031
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    I should take my HS grumbles to the thread but before I go it's worth saying that if you can stand the samples/music/style and grind - there is a pretty decent game in there I think.

    I don't doubt Blizzard will polish-the-hell out of the game but it feels a BIT rough in places atm. Most notable is that the 'friends' thing feels like an afterthought when it really should be more aggressive I think. I've become used to mobile games being pushy about sending friend requests to people because, for the most part, it's generally a good thing.

    I played a game against a (human - not practice) Rogue earlier (as a Mage) and it was fantastic - we were both down to 1pt and he conceded because he had nothing left to hit me with and I had a minion to hit back with - was nice to play against someone paying attention - took me a while to figure out how to send a friend invite tho!

  12. #19032
    Lesser Hivemind Node Scumbag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorzan View Post
    Thanks to Kadayi I've been playing a bit of Dark Souls. I had to quit just now because I lost a 4000 souls recovery due to my own stupidity, I dodged into a fall on my way to the recovery...
    Keep at it. Later on you realise that is pocket change compared to later losses.

  13. #19033
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drayk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scumbag View Post
    Keep at it. Later on you realise that is pocket change compared to later losses.
    This.

    I also was pissed one time when I lost 20.000 souls and 13 humanity but really, its no big deal. Later in the game you can farm tons of Souls by crushing some easy mobs ( sentinels in Anar Londo for exemple, or the blue things in the library... )

    One of the best part of the game in walking, feeling home, in areas you were scared to wander at first.

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    I give unto you the maddest of props. You're a god damned super hero.
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  14. #19034
    Lesser Hivemind Node Gorzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scumbag View Post
    Keep at it. Later on you realise that is pocket change compared to later losses.
    I guessed so, but it was too much at the moment.
    I've actually just killed Taurus right now, in the most anticlimatic way, threw him out of the bridge without even knowing that was possible... Got drake sword, too, it's amazing how quickly it degrades.

  15. #19035
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    I should take my HS grumbles to the thread but before I go it's worth saying that if you can stand the samples/music/style and grind - there is a pretty decent game in there I think.

    I don't doubt Blizzard will polish-the-hell out of the game but it feels a BIT rough in places atm. Most notable is that the 'friends' thing feels like an afterthought when it really should be more aggressive I think. I've become used to mobile games being pushy about sending friend requests to people because, for the most part, it's generally a good thing.

    I played a game against a (human - not practice) Rogue earlier (as a Mage) and it was fantastic - we were both down to 1pt and he conceded because he had nothing left to hit me with and I had a minion to hit back with - was nice to play against someone paying attention - took me a while to figure out how to send a friend invite tho!
    He was a rogue. He can summon 1/2 daggers at any point for 2 mana and hit you.
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  16. #19036
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorzan View Post
    I guessed so, but it was too much at the moment.
    I've actually just killed Taurus right now, in the most anticlimatic way, threw him out of the bridge without even knowing that was possible... Got drake sword, too, it's amazing how quickly it degrades.
    I would recommend being wary of using the drake sword, at least on your first playthrough for two reasons

    1. It is just too powerful. You'll be oneshotting mooks and tearing the shit out of bosses when you SHOULD be learning defensive techniques and how to do hit and runs
    2. It gets you into the wrong mindset. In most RPGs (at least Western, probably Japanese too), you just find new gear all the time and switch to it. Dark Souls is more about finding what weapon's moveset best suits your style and upgrading it (and then upgrading similar weapons to cover the different elemental damages).
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  17. #19037
    Lesser Hivemind Node apricotsoup's Avatar
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    Ok I'd heard that Shadow Warrior was good but this is surpassing my expectations, jolly good fun and the best gun/sword action in a long time.

    Brothers was a nice ride but I can't help feel that the "puzzles" and platforming being overly simple and the controls that actually made my hands hurt on the controller (which hasn't happened since I got too far into fighting games as a lad) were huge downsides. The constantly having to hold in both triggers whilst waggling both sticks is not comfortable at all for me.

    Still the game actually feels like a journey and tells a story well without any dialogue.

    Oh and months on I'm still playing huge amounts of hearthstone, coming from a card/board gaming background this is the game I've been waiting years to play and the actual playing is very satisfying.

    As long as the content after release is fairly standard (a new set of cards/content every few months and a few asthetic things like they've said is plenty) and they stay on top of the bugs/balance (the balance is pretty good atm, if a little favouring rush atm but these things ebb and flow with changes which are pretty easy to implement) it'll be here for a long while.
    Last edited by apricotsoup; 02-01-2014 at 05:12 PM.

  18. #19038
    Lesser Hivemind Node L_No's Avatar
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    Finished Mirror's Edge, being thorougly impressed by it. It was quite short though, which is a shame. According to Steam, I finished the game in under six hours, and that's not counting the time I took wandering around and taking screenshots. More of this please! I would've liked the world to be a bit more open too. It looks open, but there are not much possibilities for exploring it.

    Still slaving away at Super Hexagon (in short bursts), and will be starting Don't Starve tonight.
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  19. #19039
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    The bonus of Mirror's Edge is that having played it once, you can start to play around with it a lot. Have you tried going for the non-lethal achievement on hard difficulty, for example? If not, try that! Done with that or don't like that? Try speed running the levels in the time trials. There's a lot of content there, if you want to make the most out of it.

    Beat the flagship in FTL on a run where I did almost exactly the same thing as I did last time I fought it, except this time I was armed with a secret weapon - luck! I attacked the same sub-systems in the same order, teleported the same people into the missile-firing weapon location and was gifted with the luck of having all my laser weapons hit, allowing my beam to actually do its job. I'm still not convinced. My satisfaction of beating the boss was "Well, that was lucky! That was lucky that my critical sub-systems didn't get destroyed or heavily damaged rendering me useless. That was lucky how all my lasers hit allowing me to do the damage I needed to do!" In Luck we trust!

    I immediately then booted up Risk of Rain and after a bizarre audio problem, realised keyboard controls weren't for me, picked up my 360 controller and then proceeded to play it for about 50 minutes going "Jeez, this is hard...but it's really, really neat!" I think it would work better from being played in co-op, if only because one person doesn't seem to have enough abilities for the hordes it throws at you, but otherwise it's good fun. Music is stellar, too.
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  20. #19040
    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    Beat the flagship in FTL on a run where I did almost exactly the same thing as I did last time I fought it, except this time I was armed with a secret weapon - luck! I attacked the same sub-systems in the same order, teleported the same people into the missile-firing weapon location and was gifted with the luck of having all my laser weapons hit, allowing my beam to actually do its job. I'm still not convinced. My satisfaction of beating the boss was "Well, that was lucky! That was lucky that my critical sub-systems didn't get destroyed or heavily damaged rendering me useless. That was lucky how all my lasers hit allowing me to do the damage I needed to do!" In Luck we trust!
    The key is to eliminate that need for luck. It isn't all that obvious on the first couple of playthroughs but you do get the hang of it eventually, especially on easy. Still, a streak of exceptionally bad luck can render the game unwinnable and I can see why the game's obtuseness frustrated so many players.

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