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  1. #1
    Network Hub wrestledwithgod's Avatar
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    A Song of Tits and Wine (Spoilers!)

    Because nobody likes long winded ramblings about GRRM's merits as a progressive writer in their TV discussion.

    Also he recently released an excerpt from The Winds of Winter and season four of Game of Thrones just kicked off. So yeah. Argue away, I guess?

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Does this count as a spoiler?

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  3. #3
    Network Hub wrestledwithgod's Avatar
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    Some ale would be nice with that. Looking at memes makes me thirsty.

  4. #4
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    Progressive writer? Wtf?

    I really dislike him right now. Loved tomes 1-3, but 4-5 were just painful to read.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    I thought the first 2-3 books were fine, oddly addictive and trashy but nothing particularly brilliant in them, also various problems with just going on and on about detail that doesn't matter. The last couple books were just awful.

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    I basically agree with Zephro, although I won't go so far as to call them "trashy". While I am hesitant to compare it to the paragon of film that is Commando (YEAH!!!!), I think there is a very good comparison. During the "too much red meat" fight scene in a motel, Ahnold and random dude (the black guy from Predator that wasn't Carl Weathers?) randomly break through a wall into an adjacent room where there is a topless woman with very large breasts. There is absolutely no reason for that to occur and it is fanservice at its most blatant. It largely feels like the director/writers just said "Hmm, we need more ta-tas" and put it in (innuendo!).

    A Game of Thrones (first novel) was actually quite good. Not "literary genius", but good. After that, it started seeming like Martin had a checlist of what he had to put in to each book to make it "gritty" and to give people what they expect. But it never really got blatant until the past two or three (so after this season of the TV show).

    That being said, I am still glad that Martin opened the door for other, better, authors to run wild with the concept of "gritty fantasy". He didn't invent it, but he showed publishers there was an interest.
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  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I think there is enough in there including the last two books that puts it above a lot of stuff in the fantasy genre, even now George's stuff still feels a little like a breath of fresh air in a very generic and overstuffed with trilogies fantasy genre. I don't think he is literary genius no, but to be honest I've never actually liked any of the books that have won the top author awards and are considered literary geniuses so actually kind of glad he isn't.

    I will say people should actually learn from him how to make characters and how to make them interesting and unique even from a few lines/chapters I'm not talking about their arcs I'm talking about their personalities.

  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    In his dreamsongs, George RR Martins autobiography of sorts (in which he shows his earlier and formative works - interesting reads all of them), he has explained his career in TV shows. He has a pretty long career there, writing for lots of stuff, including the Twilight Zone, but his scripts always had one problem: They were too long, and too expensive.

    Book 4 and 5 of GoT suffer from the same problem (and he knows this). Hopefully he won't repeat it with 6 and 7.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Spoilers, obv...

    Personally, I don't have the criticism of Feast and Dance. I enjoyed them thoroughly. I tend to look at Tywin's death, Stannis dealing with his responsibilities at the Wall, and Dany taking Mereen, the latter half of Storm, as the end of Act I... With Feast and Dance standing as the opening of Act II, continuing the storylines that have been so irrevocably changed, introducing the Iron Islands stuff, and Dornish stuff, the Pisswater Prince, and more of Essos, and laying the groundwork for the last two books and the conclusion.

    After the Red Wedding, Jaime returning to King's Landing, and Stannis not showing back up etc., the Lannisters were feeling secure, about to cement that with the wedding to the Tyrells, Roose subduing the North etc.... Everything is going their way. And then Joffrey dies, their family collapses, then Clegane is (as good as) killed, the rift with Dorne is opened some more, the only Stark they had goes missing, the Iron Bank wants its money, the Dragon's roar is heard, and then Tywin takes his last (Golden) shit. Nothing is finished, but some of the threads come to a point that could be seen as a conclusion (Wildling invasion, Tywin, Slaver's Bay). It's like a moment of pause, the curtain falls and there's a round of applause.

    And then, as I say, Feast and Dance come along, after that pause. They start new threads and new plotlines, lay more groundwork, give us the King's Moot, and the Dornish plots, advance Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, move Tyrion into position, continues the whole omens and stories from the world reflecting events in the books thing (i.e. compare Meribald's tale about the Clanking Dragon with Griff/Aegon), gives us Cersei and her descent, more of Jaime's redemption etc. Things happen, but there's a sense of restraint to it... it's more about building things up, than watching them fall (which they should in the next two books). I don't mind that... it's good to get a bit of a break (though not a complete break), and have the tension built up and up again, as it was in the first book.

    Sure, I can see the choice to not have Jon/Tyrion/Dany in Feast annoying some people, but... just read Feast and Dance back to back. Some people don't like Cersei, she's nowhere near as sympathetic as Jaime becomes, but I enjoy her descent into madness, and it's refreshing to see an immoral female character like that. Meereen drags a bit, but I think there's a lot more to the Harpy plot than there appears. Brienne's journey is great, through the real aftermath of the War of 5 Kings. And it's good to see Arya/Sansa/Jon/Dany learning their roles, rather than just becoming what they're going to become... we see their journey and progression etc. rather than it just being "...and Arya became a successful faceless killer" or "... now Sansa was a player in the Game of Thrones, not just a piece". I don't think they're perfect, I do have some issues/complaints (I felt Young Griff's introduction was somewhat abrupt, there's a little too much Cersei in Feast, not enough Sansa and Davos in the two books), but on the whole I think they're up there with the previous 3 books... Definitely not awful or painful to read, though, of course, YMMV.

    Anyway, that's probably too much typing on that... I'll talk about the TV show instead now!

    Looking forward to the Wedding this week, though I'm a little miffed Sky Atlantic in the UK isn't broadcasting it at 2am Monday morning, like they did with the first episode last week. Will have to wait 'til Monday evening to watch it. Interesting to see how overt they make Sansa's new necklace (I assume it replaces the hairnet), and/or Tyrell involvement, what the... Primary entertainments will be, and, not attached to the wedding I don't think, what Locke (the Vargo Hoat replacement) will be doing, as I've read that he's meant to be appearing.
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  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    I’ll probably have to wait for the DVD of this season because my new tv package doesn’t include Atlantic. I enjoy the books immensely; I just enjoy the show more. It comes with its own challenges, but overall I find George’s writing the bigger challenge to get through at this point.

    Xercies is right though, I know these people inside and out, and every one of them seems to have a great nickname. George knows how to make fascinating characters.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I actually agree Feast and Dance are not bad books, but I think they are slower books especially feast which is as slow as it comes. But I saw that book as a nice breather and some more world building, we didn't really get a chance with all the craziness happening in the first three books to really feel what was going on with the "normal" people of Westoros and Feast gave us that, its got an air of that book that no matter who wins the throne and stuff they have all lost anyway since no one has enough to eat, the farms are all destroyed and Winter is already here.

    I actually really appreciated the Dany storyline in Dance actually it showed quite a smart outlook on these kind of storylines. Many writers would have skipped to her on the gates of Kings Landing making her queen and being the best ruler. But nope George actually made it interesting in that she knew she had to gain more ruler practice, and the struggles that she would have in this I can understand why people wouldn't like it since it does show Dany doing quite a few wrong moves and being a bit weak but I do have to say tat is the betterment to the character and we needed to see the foibles to show maybe in the future how she would be the great ruler that he is probably setting her up to be.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Yeah I actually enjoy Feast and Dance, especially Dance. Re-reading and analysing them they contain some of the most subtle and best parts of the series. Septon Meribald's speech is very good, and it represents a lot of what books 4-5 tackle, which is the effect of war on the common man (Brienne's chapters cover this) and really how difficult it is to rule (Jon/Dany). I know a lot of people dislike the fact that after ASOS the books are seemingly quite slow, but I don't think you can just keep going at ASOS pace. Part of the reason the third book is loved so much is because it resolves many of the building storylines from book 1 and 2. Going into 4-5 and killing/moving at that pace wouldn't be as satisfying. If you look at AFFC and ADWD and Act 2 Part 1, then I think they're still extremely satisfying.

    I should have read Unaco's post more thoroughly.

    Speaking of Young Griff - I agree his introduction is too brief - but do you feel the same way if you consider the Blackfyre theory/have you seen the Blackfyre theory? It's stuff like that which is entirely why I love the series.
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  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    Speaking of Young Griff - I agree his introduction is too brief - but do you feel the same way if you consider the Blackfyre theory/have you seen the Blackfyre theory? It's stuff like that which is entirely why I love the series.
    If he turns out to be the "Mummer's Dragon", which I reckon he will, then no, I'd say his introduction was about right. But, in a way, it's the abruptness of it makes me more convinced that he is a Blackfyre or other fraud, and not the genuine Aegon Targaryen VI. I didn't catch much of the Blackfyre theory/theories on my first read of Dance, mostly because I didn't do a reread of the previous books, so I didn't have my theory head on. But I caught quite a few hints on a 2nd read through of everything... like Meribald's tale about the Inn of the Clanking Dragon sign (Black Dragon = Blackfyre inversion of the Targaryen Red Dragon sigil, chopped up and thrown into the river = exile across the Narrow Sea, washing up on the Quiet Isle rusted red = eventually coming back as a Targaryen) in Feast, that was the one that convinced me.

    And yeah, catching things like that, or the pieces of R+L=J, is why it's such a good series.
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  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm convinced it's true now. And the fact that Dany is the "slayer of lies" I would imagine indicates that at some point she may reveal his true identity.

    The Frey pies are excellent as well, and cement Manderly as one of my favourite North men.

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  15. #15
    Network Hub wrestledwithgod's Avatar
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    I never liked R+L=J, and if he somehow survived ADwD I'll like it even less. Making your almost-Sue secretly an heir to the throne as well as a fucking dragon tamer? Pass. Judging from the rest of the series I doubt GRRM will take that route, but still...

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Well remember that R+L = J doesn't at all mean that Jon will ever take the throne or even come into contact with a dragon. I'm 100% certain it's true, and GRRM has said Jon will find out who his mother is...which he hasn't so there's no way he's dead for good. Though it's possible he's been Beric'd and is not the same as he was, if he didn't survive outright.
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  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion that the first 3 books are great, but 4& 5 suffer as a result of the disconnection more than the introduction of the new characters. Some ASOIAF fanatic put together a pretty comprehensive read both together list: -

    http://boiledleather.com/post/245432...e-with-dragons

    And albeit I haven't read them that way myself (who has the time...) I've heard good things from the book fanatics I know.

    I fully expect the GoT show runners will undoubtedly excise many of the characters when they transcribe books 4-5 to the show in order to streamline the plot as well as to keep their actors in order. In truth I suspect the events of both books will likely be compressed into a single season which pretty much guarantees that short of GRRM having two books up his sleeves that the show will outpace the books in no small order.

    Can't say I was much of a fan of Jon Snows meteoric rise to Watch commander. That whole aspect felt a bit Harry Potter truth be told. Albeit it can be argued that Rob was as young, he had a clear legacy. Where as I just don't see seasoned Crows falling in with the elevation of a boy (albeit a Stark Bastard) to such a senior position and although things go tits up for him, I just never bought him winning the vote in the first place.
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  18. #18
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    I thought books 1-3 were great. I thought 4-5 were good, but disconnecting them geographically was a bad idea. I'm not in the "nothing happened" camp, because I think a lot happened, and the books are as much about the maneuvering and details as about the "let's kill a main character". You can't have a Red Wedding every book. TV show is doing a great job so far. I don't get the feeling that he's fallen too much into Robert Jordan territory yet.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    In truth I suspect the events of both books will likely be compressed into a single season which pretty much guarantees that short of GRRM having two books up his sleeves that the show will outpace the books in no small order.
    Yep I can see that I can already see they might be putting a bit of book 4 into this season it would make sense to do some of the Dorne stuff a bit early since it would show the viewer why they are important which didnt really happen in the third book. Also the show needs to address the iron islands king being killed and so maybe the beginning of that storyline would be good as well since there is no point just going there once for the death. So season 5 would be most of book 5 with added brinne journey and cersei stuff.

  20. #20
    Lesser Hivemind Node Faldrath's Avatar
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    This makes it all worth it:


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