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  1. #2401
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I think you need a good person to oversee it, otherwise you can end up with too much random plot points without enough time to properly resolve them (as was the case of Lost, as much as I enjoyed the show).
    I agree you need a main writer which seems to be the auteur of TV to be able to see where the characters could be taken. But just look at the Breaking Bad stuff where they said Jesse's character and Sauls character wasnt going to be the big characters they turned out to be showing that the writer saw that those characters were important and it completely changed the plot of that show.

  2. #2402
    Network Hub Rath's Avatar
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    Archer Vice - 5x11 - Palce Of Intrigue, Part 2

    As slightly inconsistent as season 5 has been so far, even a lesser episode of Archer is better than most other stuff on TV at the moment. 5x11 has the uncomfortable task of being the middle episode of a trilogy, although technically quite a few of the last episodes in a row have followed on from one another to become almost serialised at this point.Highlight of the episode was a Peanuts reference from Mallory.

    Archer:
    "Why would you throw away a perfectly good gun?!"
    Mallory: "Because it touched your... junk!"
    Archer: "How dirty do you think my junk is?"
    Mallory: "As dirty as if it were made of dirt and then got dropped in some different dirt and then Pigpen came along and kicked it around with his dirty shoes."

    ---

    Jim Hensons' Creature Shop Challenge 1x02 and 1x03

    I forgot about this for a week so I watched both in a row. The Dark Crystal fans will enjoy episode 2, the challenge was to create Skeksis. Elimination spoilers: Wasn't surprised that Tina got chucked, I was amazed she wasn't out in the first episode.

    Episode 3 brief was an electronic creature that lived in a scrapyard, almost like a scrapheap challenge kind of show. Surprised to see Josh actually walk away and forfeit rather than see anyone actually eliminated, I'd thought he was quite a strong designer.

    Gigi Edgley doesn't look right without the Chiana makeup. (Not that she looks bad, far from it.) It's the same kind of weird as seeing Michael Dorn as himself rather than as Worf.
    Still highly amused by one of the judges having been the Punk On The Bus from Star Trek IV.

    --

    Watched a few Rick and Morty after people in this thread evangelised it so highly, and I have to give them credit. The haunted look on Mortys' face at the end of episode 6 was amazing.

    --

    Edit: Fuck, I didn't realise Continuum Season 3 had started. Now I have four episodes to binge on.
    Last edited by Rath; 09-04-2014 at 02:02 PM.
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  3. #2403
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but gotta give a big, big disagree on all fronts:

    Littlefinger is literally the complete opposite of a moustache twirling villain. I mean the complete opposite. That is exactly what he is on the show, which is fine. But come on, the entire point in the books is he's just a regular guy,. He's very, very good at getting people to trust him because of this. Need money? Littlefinger! He's just some nobody from the Vale who will give you a hand. Oh what's that? Behind the scenes he's one of the main reasons for the war? I see.

    In no way is Martin "checking off" characters, I'm not sure I could name a single main character who's death has been purely for shock value, and not to serve a plot point. The only one I can really think of is Quentyn and that still served a pretty obvious purpose.

    And book Stannis has some of the funniest, driest humour in the series. I am obviously a big fan. I can see why people don't like him, but I could never consider him boring...
    Regarding Littlefinger: In the book he is outwardly less of a mustache twirler, but to the reader he is basically a guy who will dick over anyone and everything at all moments. I agree the show has lost the key reason of WHY people keep trusting him, but the character itself isn't that far off.

    And I dunno. I think Stannis is best as the straight man to Onion Knight Dude Whose Name I Forgot or Jon Snow. With everyone else he comes across as a bit "meh".

    And what I mean by "checking off" is that he knows the "gritty fantasy" tropes people associate with him and it feels like it is a "once a book" tradition to mark them off.

    Getting into Book Discussion territory, but Prince of Thorns by whatshisface is a great example of this kind of "problem". It is clearly written to be a "Martin-Style Fantasy" and it shows, right down to punctuating scenes with random rape and going out of their way to say "These protagonists are gritty anti-heroes!". It gets the point across and you can't outright say "this is pointless" but it is also hard to say that the goal wasn't largely to be called "edgy". Feels like I am back in the 90s and reading a Cable book (without Deadpool, but they didn't really team-up until the 00s).
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  4. #2404
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    chomp
    I think they have pretty much got LF's motives down for the most part, but I still think in the book he's not as outright evil. For better or for worse, he did love Catelyn and he is taking care of Sansa. We will see how far that goes, but so far he's just shown he's excellent at manipulation.

    Stannis, is great to me, because he's the example of what it is to be a just man, in a place like Westeros. Renly was trying to usurp him, and by law deserved to die, which Stannis had carried out, but it eats him up inside. Look at his peach speech.

    Martin just uses tropes and either follows them in a unusual way, or breaks them. I certainly wouldn't say it's become predictable, and everything such as Jon Snow's stabbing, is due to the actions carried out throughout the book. Then look at Sansa. In most stories, she would be the pretty maid, rescued by a handsome knight. In reality, the only in KL who seems to care for her at all is the Hound, who is a monster in many eyes, and looks on knights as fools. I don't it's just constant gritty characters at all.
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  5. #2405
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Been watching Walking Dead, and Cheers...

    TWD is good stuff, but Cheers is phenomenal. Absorbed into the show and loving every minute of it. The exits of certain characters and imagining the "what ifs" is incredibly heart breaking.

    I feel like I have been transported back to the 1990s to grieve with other Cheers fans. It feels much in the same way as I did when I watched Firefly series recently. Maybe less, but only because at least Cheers got to have it's full day in the sun. Unfortunately was not universal for those in Cheers though :(

    I am also a big fan of Frasier and to see his character and other characters from Frasier act and act out in the show is amazingly fun. Kelsey Grammer is great :)

    He'll even be in the new Transformers movie which I think is hilarious, I may see it just for that :P
    Last edited by rockman29; 09-04-2014 at 05:36 PM.

  6. #2406
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    I think they have pretty much got LF's motives down for the most part, but I still think in the book he's not as outright evil. For better or for worse, he did love Catelyn and he is taking care of Sansa. We will see how far that goes, but so far he's just shown he's excellent at manipulation.
    I think he comes across as at least having somewhat "reasonable" motives, even if he goes off the deep end and probably should register on a sex offender list. Again, I only have the first two seasons of TV, but he is a lot less "sympathetic", but that could also be later book knowledge tainting that, just like how I liked Jaime from the start in TV, in large part because of what happened in the book corresponding to last season and this one.

    Stannis, is great to me, because he's the example of what it is to be a just man, in a place like Westeros. Renly was trying to usurp him, and by law deserved to die, which Stannis had carried out, but it eats him up inside. Look at his peach speech.
    Stannis is definitely interesting in being a "less moronic" version of Eddard Stark.

    Martin just uses tropes and either follows them in a unusual way, or breaks them. I certainly wouldn't say it's become predictable, and everything such as Jon Snow's stabbing, is due to the actions carried out throughout the book. Then look at Sansa. In most stories, she would be the pretty maid, rescued by a handsome knight. In reality, the only in KL who seems to care for her at all is the Hound, who is a monster in many eyes, and looks on knights as fools. I don't it's just constant gritty characters at all.
    I am not saying he is a bad writer (overrated, maybe :p). This is one of those reasons that I regularly compare him to Frank Miller.

    Miller's early work is AMAZING and it subverts quite a few tropes while showing completely new ways to tell comic book stories (even if other people had already set the ball rolling...) But, over the years, it just started to feel like he was doing what was expected of him and tries to hit a checklist with every (comic) book he writes, and he has been eclipsed by so many of his contemporaries (who largely got a chance/were inspired by him). To the point that Holy Terror or whatever that Jihad book was is well in the range of "Uhm... is he parodying himself?"

    Heads up: What follows are book spoilers

    Regarding Jon Snow: Honestly, it was pretty predictable. He was one of the last characters people "cared" about and it was definitely setting him up to get involved in the war. I wasn't expecting him to "die" like that, but we were nearing the end of the book and "someone had to die" as it were. If memory serves, I had it narrowed down to "Snow or Tyrion" and knew Martin wouldn't off the imp. Admittedly, I was hoping it would be Daenarys, but the world is not that just :p.

    Sansa: Not really. She is just the damsel in distress in a horrible and evil land. It is no different than Snow White being abused by her stepsisters. How she got there is a bit different, but her arc is pure damsel. Although, I do hope that changes as Sophie Turner is actually a halfway decent actress and book Sansa is finally in a position where she might be able to get a bit of power.
    And The Hound is a straight up gritty anti-hero. There is absolutely nothing special about him (aside from being totally awesome).


    That's why, overall, I have liked a lot of the tweaks the show has made. By spreading the focus to a lot of the non-POV characters it gives them an opportunity to "enhance" Martin's original work a bit. They screw up too, but I have yet to see/read about them doing something that I can say is definitively worse than the books. Different and "bad" in a different way, but not a showstopper. And they also get a lot of things a lot better.

    Oh, wait, they did do something worse than the books. The pacing of Season/Book 2 :p. And probably Robb's wife, but I give a pass on that as at least Robb was a character.

    Oh, one character who DOES subvert, or at least play with, a lot of the tropes is Arya. The show is only up to her adventures with The Hound thus far, but she is already a character who is basically following the path of a Young Adult book hero but in a MUCH darker and sociopathic light (although, it seems the show is toning that back a bit, just like with Carl on The Walking Dead).
    Last edited by gundato; 09-04-2014 at 05:46 PM.
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  7. #2407
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    I disagree entirely, just because main characters die, it's not just fulfilling expectations.

    Many people - including me - believe that Jon Snow is the main character - if you predicted he'd be stabbed well more power to you, but it's not something that was really expected, or run of the mill. He's probably not dead, and if you reflect on what he was doing, he almost deserved it. Other main characters die, sure, but the notion that he does it for the shock and not for the plot is just off.
    Sansa - yes she is a damsel in distress - that is the point, but where it differs from Snow White and other damsels is the fact that she isn't saved or returned to glory, she's lead around by others, until she gets to the Vale, where she's learning to manipulate others herself. And the Hound is different. Anti-Hero could describe him, sure. But he's not really. In the show, maybe. But in the books, he's a bad person, but not evil. I don't think he's heroic in any way, particularly.

    As before, I do love the show and will continue to watch it. But it does whitewash a ton of characters. I enjoy the added bits, however.
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  8. #2408
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    I disagree entirely, just because main characters die, it's not just fulfilling expectations.

    Many people - including me - believe that Jon Snow is the main character - if you predicted he'd be stabbed well more power to you, but it's not something that was really expected, or run of the mill. He's probably not dead, and if you reflect on what he was doing, he almost deserved it. Other main characters die, sure, but the notion that he does it for the shock and not for the plot is just off.
    Meh, it seemed pretty predictable to me and most of my friends. He probably isn't dead dead (might be warging it up though, which would give Bran a purpose), but it perfectly lined up with "Well, end of the book, gotta put a shock scene in". But I might just be more cynical


    Sansa - yes she is a damsel in distress - that is the point, but where it differs from Snow White and other damsels is the fact that she isn't saved or returned to glory, she's lead around by others, until she gets to the Vale, where she's learning to manipulate others herself. And the Hound is different. Anti-Hero could describe him, sure. But he's not really. In the show, maybe. But in the books, he's a bad person, but not evil. I don't think he's heroic in any way, particularly.
    So the only difference is that her story isn't over yet? If you were to cut someone off when talking about Snow White while her evil stepsisters are throwing her in the basement, does that suddenly mean it is defying tropes and is "really something new and amazing"?
    If Martin decides to give her a boost of competence, that will be great and it actually WILL be something other than the generic "damsel in distress" story. But as of the most recent book, there is absolutely nothing special about her.

    And The Hound read like any 90s anti-hero to me.


    The thing to remember is: Tropes are not bad. They exist for a reason. But don't credit someone who is VERY by the book (and getting pretty formulaic) with doing really nifty and amazing things. Martin uses pretty standard tropes and his character arcs aren't really all that special, for the most part. That doesn't make him a bad writer, but it also doesn't make him a visionary or a truly amazing one.

    As before, I do love the show and will continue to watch it. But it does whitewash a ton of characters. I enjoy the added bits, however.
    This I definitely agree on. Caught an episode from last season and Arya seemed downright normal (mostly) and Tyrion has basically gone from "Well, he is the least shitty Lannister and he has a fun sense of humor" to "Basically the star of the show" since a few episodes in to Season 1. Probably because they realized that Dinklage is their best actor that they weren't planning to off in season 1.
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  9. #2409
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Him getting gutted is predictable in the sense is that it follows the narrative. What Jon was doing was too revolutionary, and against a lot of what the Watch is for. He was actually breaking his vows. This isn't tropey or typical to happen. The main guy of the story, misleading everything and getting punished for it.
    And as I said, Sansa being the damsel in distress is tropey - again, that is the point - the resolution to her story is moving away from that. But as has already been shown she has that boost of competence, she's beginning to manipulate and recognise schemes, like Lyn Corbray's show of anger.


    People argue that Martin doesn't use tropes - he does and that's fine because they're tropes for a reason, but he doesn't just follow them, he turns them on their head or spins them differently, which makes it more exciting. The closest thing we have to a true knight in the entire series is Brienne - a large woman who is outcast and trapped in a society who frowns on what she is.
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  10. #2410
    Network Hub Dubbill's Avatar
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    Too much spoilered out text in here. I don't know what you're talking about any more.

    Let's celebrate The Trip being back:

    Open-faced sandwiches are upon you whether you would risk it or not.

  11. #2411
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    I still don't get the praise for The Trip. Feels to me people are just fooling themselves into liking it because it's Coogan and Brydon and they really want to like it. That clip doesn't make me want to try again given that it's pretty much an exact retread.

    Feel free to tell me how horribly wrong I am but it's just all a bit too cosy (while at the same time feeling like one big private joke, a bit contradictory but there you have it!) for me I think.
    Last edited by Lambchops; 09-04-2014 at 11:24 PM.

  12. #2412
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    People argue that Martin doesn't use tropes - he does and that's fine because they're tropes for a reason, but he doesn't just follow them, he turns them on their head or spins them differently, which makes it more exciting. The closest thing we have to a true knight in the entire series is Brienne - a large woman who is outcast and trapped in a society who frowns on what she is.
    Except he really doesn't, for the most part.

    How is Brienne being a (mostly) good and honorable woman in a land of bad folks any different than the usual story of "the hero" being better than all the other people in their school/army/whatever?

    What Martin is good for is that he approaches things from a different angle. He tells Snow White from the perspective of the stepsisters and he tends to focus on the "mean but efficient" folks instead of the hero kid. But the story is still the same.

    And watched the most recent Agents of SHIELD. Honestly, I actually really liked the episode. I was kind of still hoping Captain Cardboard and Super Useless Hacker Girl would get shot in the head a few dozen times, but the plot was fun and it was the kind of story Team Whedon can handle. My theories held true and Team Whedon is now doing a show they are capable of doing, mostly.

    Spoilers: I am glad Victoria Hand wasn't a bad gal. Too many people kept saying "She started as a bad guy" with reference to last week. She was NEVER a bad guy in the comics. She was a good woman who believed in what HAMMER stood for (essentially SHIELD with a greater emphasis on limiting collateral damage and restricting vigilante activity), and she jumped ship the moment Norman went full-on Goblin. Shame they offed her.

    By the way, is Saffron Burrows okay? She has always been a twig but she just has looked really unhealthy this past year, and it was particularly noticeable when she was a main character in this episode.

    Shame Paxton was the big bad though. I really liked his character. Also a shame Captain Cardboard was the mole (although, I totally expected that once they played up his homicidal tendencies in the episode), would have much preferred Useless Hacker Girl to go bye bye.

    And still huge tone issues. Captain Cardboard whinged about killing an innocent dude but didn't mind offing people guarding Manhattan-Juice (although, one can argue that was a hint). And how the whole "Only use stun guns" went out the window almost instantly.

    Also, massive hilarity during the climactic fight scene. Ming Na's stunt double was going full on Black Widow while Clark Gregg and Paxton were having a really shitty "old man fight". REALLY amused me.
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  13. #2413
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    How is Brienne being a (mostly) good and honorable woman in a land of bad folks any different than the usual story of "the hero" being better than all the other people in their school/army/whatever?
    Because she's not male, handsome, successful, treated well by her peers etc she fails in her quest and gets disfigured. She is the trope of a knight, but upside down.
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  14. #2414
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    Because she's not male, handsome, successful, treated well by her peers etc she fails in her quest and gets disfigured. She is the trope of a knight, but upside down.
    Or she's a supporting character...

    I'll give you that she isn't male or pretty, but is that really playing with a trope or just not making everyone have a huge schlong? Which should be applauded, but isn't really playing with tropes and doing magic shit. It is comparable to having your YA hero (or character, period...) not dangle.
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  15. #2415
    Network Hub Rath's Avatar
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    Just binged on Continuum 3x01 to 3x04 - fucking hell, they seem to have really stepped up in terms of writing quality. The new intro sequence is decent, although nothing amazing. Having two versions of Alec in one timeline is going to be interesting, especially since they've not only started to take on divergent viewpoints on certain issues (Emily, most notably) and now that they've come face to face and realised that they do not like each other, I'm seeing shades of the twinning of John Crichton.
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  16. #2416
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    On the Martin front: Spoilers of the books

    Its interesting the people he does kill actually cause apart from Ned Stark none of the others he has killed have really been fan favourites. Robb wasn't really a character to much in the books, Catelyn maybe is the closest but he brought her back, the wife I don't think really had any personality, I mean he didn't kill off Theon either. He hasn't and I don't think he ever will touch Arya, Tyrion, Brienne or Jaime that would definitly be a shock if he did kill them but there to much fan favourites and the only connection we have left to the earlier books with all these new characters coming in.

  17. #2417
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Xercies named the only 4 characters people liked and is right that they're not going to die at any point.

    Also I'm pretty sure everyone I've ever discussed this with was pretty happy that Catelyn died. Her chapters were painful.

  18. #2418
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    I liked her as a person for the most part and it's sad that she's gone. But with the War of 5 Kings coming to an end it made sense for her to go, as I can't see where her chapters would have gone.
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  19. #2419
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    I liked her as a person for the most part and it's sad that she's gone. But with the War of 5 Kings coming to an end it made sense for her to go, as I can't see where her chapters would have gone.
    Agreed. The chapters were painful (honestly, pretty much all of Martin's female chapters are pretty bad, with Brienne and occasionally Arya (to clarify: her chapters are interesting, but not because of her. Instead they are interesting because they waste very little time and tend to have the most "gritty" and interesting characters. Arya's POV is generally the only limitation, and she is going full on psycho so that is a lot less of an issue. Martin has trouble writing women, he has no trouble writing mental illness) being the only interesting ones), but the character and concepts were good. I think the issue was that Martin wanted to go with the stereotypical (and partially historically supported) idea that women were to just hide during war, so he couldn't give her much to do. Instead, she was the observer while Robb actually did things.

    And yeah, that is largely how I knew it was Snow who would be "offed". Martin needed a shocker but he was essentially out of characters anyone cared about (especially after the previous book taught him that absolutely nobody likes most of the new characters...). Essentially, we had Tyrion, Arya, Jon Snow, and Daenarys (and Jaime Lannister and maybe Brienne, but he was in limbo already). Daenarys is immune because she most likely IS the main character (there is a reason the POV keeps shifting to the land nobody cares about...), Tyrion is the moneymaker, Arya is too interesting, and Jon Snow has a potential respawn button. Ergo, his ass was gonna get murderated (or at least seriously wounded). How was still a question, but it was an inevitability.
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  20. #2420
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    I'm beginning to think Gundato reads different books to the copies everyone else gets. Martin's female characters are some of the better ones in fantasy, either rejecting the restrictions imposed upon their gender by society (Arya, Brienne), or working within those restrictions using whatever "power" they do have (Cersei, Brienne), or, you know, taming a wild stallion, birthing Dragons, and demolishing Slavery in foreign lands. As for Caetlyn hiding and doing nothing? Nothing except taking the knife to KL, arresting Tyrion, bringing the Blackfish to Robb's army, convincing Robb to use Roose to command the Northern force for the battle of the Green fork, negotiating with Walder Frey, suggesting the alliance with Renly, going to the Stormlands to suggest the alliance to Renly, fleeing with Brienne, and then taking the only chance she sees of getting her daughters back safely by freeing Jaime. She hardly hides and simply reports on Robbs actions... she does more than Robb, on the page, seen as you don't see any of Robb's battles etc. in the books.
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