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  1. #21
    Lesser Hivemind Node Labbes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    I'll make it so obvious a retard in a hurry will notice it. Diablo 2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBXz_...feature=relmfu

    Game A:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLdjOyoUr5U

    Game B:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQjw19IxB7Y

    Which of these is more like Diablo ? Game A or Game B ?
    Graphically, Path of Exile looks blatantly like D2. From a gameplay perspective, I think D3 looks far more like D2. So I'm not quite sure what your point is?
    Also, I have played D2, but neither of the comparisons.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    id games are renowned for being solid, and Rage is only the first black spot on their reputation.
    According to whom?

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    In a quite literal sense. However, John Carmack consistently delivers high quality code. id games are renowned for being solid, and Rage is only the first black spot on their reputation.

    Many people liked Painkiller 1. Painkiller 2 tried very hard to reach the same goal, and failed. Meanwhile Hard Reset is much more like it, although short. No surprise - Flying Wild Hog has former People Can Fly members.
    That's great. Hasn't got much to do with Romero though. Carmack doesn't have that rockstar mentality, mostly because he talks about coding stuff that the general populous has no hope in hell of understanding. Romero acted like a total tool and blew obscene amounts of cash on Ion Storm's image and fits closer to the 'rockstar' mentality you seem to be asking for.

    The other big names people mentioned are hardly "rockstars".

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    By attribution I mean "this track has great percussion because guy X played percussion", "This track has great vocals because Y was the vocalist", "This track has great riffs because guy Z played guitar."
    Yes, I get that. I'm saying that when it comes to the parts of the music industry that corresponds to big games publishers you usually can't do that. To find out who actually played any of the instruments you'd have to dig through the tiniest print on the sleeve and even then you might not find out.

    Good musicianship doesn't sell albums nearly as well as hype and fancy music videos (there's a joke about music fans being graphics whores in there somewhere). Record labels are in the business of making money and where they make the most is by selling brands. The same goes for the games industry, it's just that their brands are Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed while for the music industry it's The Black Eyed Peas and Lady Gaga.

    There will of course be people who know who played the funky guitar on Michael Jackson's Bad, just as a lot of people can name the project lead of Farcry 2 or the script writer for The Lion King, but most people just don't care and most people is where the money is at.

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    What if treat performers bad?
    Hear from the spirit-world this mystery:
    Creation is summed up, O man, in thee;
    Angel and demon, man and beast art thou,
    Yea, thou art all thou dost appear to be!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    Then why would they put up with 12 hours/day (and longer) crunches for months ? For every "it's just a job" person in game industry there are several enthusiasts ready to take his place. Game development job is glamorous for young males, so they're willing to put up with abuse and ridiculous contracts.
    True. But they are project members working on a collaborative project. They aren't artists defining the art. The programmers who programmed Deus Ex may have poured their heart into their programming, and one guy may have made an awesome bit of code that does great collision detection. But it's not really equivalent to a writer or musician or director who has almost total control over their work.

    Farcry had an awesome engine, so they probably and some great coders there... but it was probably a group effort, and I can't see myself buying a game because a coder from Farcry happened to work on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    I'd say it's because of ignorance. We don't know how important each of these positions are. At least I don't know what exactly does a music producer do.
    Exactly. But that's the problem. It's very hard for even enthusiasts to keep up with who is responsible for what. And often even those in the project couldn't tell you who is responsible for it's success.
    The guys who managed/produced Deus Ex seem to have no idea why it was successful, but the Eidos team who made Deus Ex 3 seem to have a much better idea than them.

    On some albums the music producer might have zero impact, on another they might have a huge impact. Even with a tiny high profile group like a band (many less people involved than a game) it's often impossible to quantify influence and effect. Why was Oasis's 3rd album not very good, but their 5th album (with some new members) much better. Who had the most influence on that success? Was it even a person, or just luck, or the situation, or the studio, or the girlfriend or the drugs/booze?

    Either way, it's just impossible to keep track of exactly who makes games. It might be the same studio, but a few / some / a lot / one key employee(s) has/have changed. It might be a different studio (which might include a few / some / all the same developers).

    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    In a quite literal sense. However, John Carmack consistently delivers high quality code. id games are renowned for being solid, and Rage is only the first black spot on their reputation.

    Many people liked Painkiller 1. Painkiller 2 tried very hard to reach the same goal, and failed. Meanwhile Hard Reset is much more like it, although short. No surprise - Flying Wild Hog has former People Can Fly members.
    But the Painkiller 1 expansion pack was made by People Can Fly and it mostly sucked.
    I'd also imagine that JC hasn't been the sole coder on iD games for quite a while, though i could be wrong.

    Another counter example might be Star Wars. Many fans would have screamed at the idea of someone other than Lucas making the prequels.. but it turned out that he had no clue what made the originals a success. Or lucasarts had no history of making FPS games, yet they made the awesome Dark Forces 1 and 2.... yet the guy who made DF2 then made some crappy FPS game, and the studio that made the excellent Elite Force made a crappy Jedi Knight 2.

    I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't be simply following franchises. But I don't think following developers/ studios is an improvement. We'd be better just looking at the games and seeing if it looks good/interesting.

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    According to whom?
    According to me, as indicated by presence of the text in my post.

    As for Star Wars, I'm not a fan and I haven't watched it. I read somewhere that the initial movie was partialy directed by some other guy, because George Lucas was sick at that time. I wouldn't be surprised if the first movie was great (by some people standard) despite George Lucas.

    To no one in particular: I'll grant you that keeping track of these individuals who made games great gets harder and harder as developers get bigger. I don't have much problem with that, because I mostly stay away from AAA games. They disapponted me too many times. I play various small indie games and "medium" ones. Another reason to avoid AAA games - it's hard to tell who does what.
    Last edited by b0rsuk; 28-04-2012 at 12:21 PM.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    This is just plain silly. Game development doesn't even work in such a way that this would be possible nor would it be a good idea if it did.

    Most of the people who work on games aren't rock stars, they are regular guys. They are guys you probably know and have gamed with and never bothered to ask what they do for a living. I have friends who work at companies like Blizzard, Microsoft, NC soft, CCP, 38 studios, and more. They are regular guys who do things like map/level design, writing, marketing, etc. They aren't rock stars and I don't think they'd even want to be.

    /shrug.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    But us, in communities like RPS? We know at least some of the people. We know BioWare Victory's project, C&C Generals 2, involves none other than Jon Van Caneghem, a name who means little to those who don't play games like Disciples, HoMM, King's Bounty and so on, or even the Might & Magic games. To us, that matters. To most? It doesn't.
    It depends on who you mean by "most". If by "most" you mean the entire gaming community, consoles and PC, then yes, I agree. But if we're looking at PC gamers then I'd say someone like JVC, who is one of the most respected designers among RPG and turn-based strategy fans, is definitely well known, as those two genres are proportionally a lot bigger on PCs than on consoles. I mean, if we include console gamers in this then I don't think any designer could be classed as widely known.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Wasn't the Metacritic for developers thingy an attempt at this?
    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
    For the Emperor!, a Total War: Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai AAR

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    I mean, if we include console gamers in this then I don't think any designer could be classed as widely known.
    Shigeru Miyamoto?
    Shinji Mikami?
    Jenova Chen?
    Fumito Ueda?
    Hideo Kojima?
    Goichi Suda (aka Suda51)?
    Tomonobu Itagaki? (his hair and sunglasses are widely known at least)
    Hironobu Sakaguchi?

    And I don't even play many Japanese games. God help us if someone who actually likes JRPGs comes along.
    Last edited by Rii; 28-04-2012 at 05:21 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Shigeru Miyamoto?
    Shinji Mikami?
    Jenova Chen?
    Fumito Ueda?
    Hideo Kojima?
    Goichi Suda (aka Suda51)?
    Tomonobu Itagaki?
    Hironobu Sakaguchi?

    And I don't even like JRPGs.
    I don't think many of them have made much (if anything) for the PC.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    I don't think many of them have made much (if anything) for the PC.
    Sure, but it doesn't make much sense to limit the discussion to PC games. Indeed, the trend towards large, homogenous, interchangeable development studios (and away from personalities like Carmack, Romero, Spector, etc.) is intimately intertwined with the shifting fortunes of the PC platform.

    The Japanese are certainly far more wedded to their auters than the west is. One question for more knowledgeable folk is whether this is more perception and marketing or a reality of Japanese development processes. From my layman's perch there is evidence for both conclusions: the Metal Gear Solid games certainly make far more sense as the reflection of a single mind in all its brilliance and idioyncrasy than as the product of any collective decision making process. On the other hand one could question whether Shigeru Miyamoto is more than a rubber stamp these days. Although he (Miyamoto) has said that he would like to take a break from his oversight role at Nintendo to explore some ideas down in the trenches, so who knows?
    Last edited by Rii; 28-04-2012 at 05:49 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Sure, but it doesn't make much sense to limit the discussion to PC games. Indeed, the trend in the mainstream towards large, homogenous development studios (and away from personalities like Carmack, Spector, etc.) is intimately intertwined with the trend to multiplatform or console-exclusive development.
    I'd argue multi-platform instead of console exclusive development. There are still lots of big names in the console game world over in Japan that have a huge influence on potential players. It's mainly the big western multi-platform franchises that get shoved around various studios with no central creative driving force that is the problem.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Wasn't treating developers like rock stars pretty much EA's 'thing' in the early 90s, even going so far as to put photos of the developers on the box art? Whatever happened to that? (Other than much, much larger development teams.)

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    Wasn't treating developers like rock stars pretty much EA's 'thing' in the early 90s, even going so far as to put photos of the developers on the box art? Whatever happened to that? (Other than much, much larger development teams.)
    That was an 80s thing in response to how Atari treated their developers (nameless, faceless, no credits in games).

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    It's not just size that makes big developers hard to track:

    Non Disclosure Agreements

    Publishers tend to treat developers like tools. Very often they make them sign NDAs and forbid to make contact with players before and after release. There are countless examples, but I'll list some:

    - Brink was a trainwreck of a game. Players felt they are being ignored, asked for changes and important bugfixes and very rarely got any response. Congratulations, Bethesda.
    - Heroes VI was abandoned after release. There are simple but important bugs, and no one fixes them. Ubisoft made everyone in the dev team keep quiet and work like slaves.

    So it's not just size that makes indie (or small) developers better. It's lack of NDA's. With no NDA in place it's easier to tell who can be praised/blamed for what. Indie devs have no problems blogging or posting development videos.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Yes but one developer that says the wrong thing and you have a minefield of questions and PR fallout. Theres a reason that there there soemtimes, it takes away someone saying something stupid on Twitter. Like say the whole Draw Something debacle.

  19. #39
    Network Hub Capt. Eduardo del Mango's Avatar
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    Obviously a musician and a game developer aren't exactly the same thing (I don't think OP was implying they were, I think he was just making a comparison) and several people have clearly (and rather aggressively) pointed out why the cases are very different in a number of ways, but still I do think there's something to the suggestion of tracking individuals/groups of developers and their abilities. Several of the big kickstarter projects, Tim Schaffer's and Brian Fargo's to pick two big-name ones, have largely based on what OP's on about - their perceived abilities and reputations.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    It's particularly silly when people say this is a wrong thing to do because publisher/musician relationship differs in X or a rockstar behaves like Y. You don't know better than I what I meant when I started this thread. I explained my position in the first post. Frankly, if you can't be bothered to read past the thread title, I don't want you here.

    Thread title is just a title. It tries to be a summary, but few points can be made within just a single line.

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