Conversational Metaphors: Rape vs. Other Bad Stuff

[Shane]

Wait. What?

Wasn't trying to say that rape is objectively justifiable but that it has been used in many cultures throughout history in the name of justice. Basically, my point is whether or not killing/rape is justifiable depends on the society.

[Grizzly]

Wasn't trying to say that rape is objectively justifiable but that it has been used in many cultures throughout history in the name of justice. Basically, my point is whether or not killing/rape is justifiable depends on the society.

Actually (Read the thread I/Kadayi linked to), rape being seen as "justified" is a problem in todays culture as well. There seems to be this "if you have been raped it is your own fault for having been an attractive target/being assaulted/not noticing those meds someone put into your drink" thing going on in certain parts of our society - which seriously affects both the understanding of the problem and the self esteem of the victims.

Personaly I feel that that is a big flaw in any society it occurs in...

[LaunchJC]

Victim blaming is a huge problem in any case, but in sexual assault cases often seems more cruel. Frustratingly (in the UK at least) there have been some well publicised cases of false rape accusations recently which will only provide ammunition for those wanting to justify it.

[Shane]

Actually (Read the thread I/Kadayi linked to), rape being seen as "justified" is a problem in todays culture as well. There seems to be this "if you have been raped it is your own fault for having been an attractive target/being assaulted/not noticing those meds someone put into your drink" thing going on in certain parts of our society - which seriously affects both the understanding of the problem and the self esteem of the victims.

I don't think victim-blaming counts as an attempt at justification of the act. People's indifference to widespread rape in prisons or rape being used as a means to punish perceived debauch behavior, in certain Islamist societies is what I'd describe as cases where rape is considered justified.

[Kadayi]

People's indifference to widespread rape in prisons or rape being used as a means to punish perceived debauch behavior, in certain Islamist societies is what I'd describe as cases where rape is considered justified.

Indifference would imply that people are aware of these things and condone them, however I don't think that's really the truth to things now is it? Peoples ignorance to that which occurs beyond their realm of knowledge and experience is hardly an argument in favour of their acceptance of such acts. You got called on this one, accept it.

[Shane]

however I don't think that's really the truth to things now is it?

What makes you say that?

You got called on this one, accept it.

Never.

[Nalano]

Yeah, this is gonna end well. Maybe... No, there's no way to discuss this without being able party to the eventual devolution of the of this thread when it ultimately collapses in one of a dozen ways.

Yeah, let's just get it out of the way. You always get at least one poster for each of the following viewpoints:

- Rape is terrible in a way that can't be joked about
- No topic is so taboo it can't be joked about
- Rape is more mentally distressing than murder
- Nothing is more mentally distressing than murder, and games depict murder all the time
- Gamers use "rape" in a cavalier and ultimately juvenile way that is offensive to victims of rape
- ...just as they use the words "faggot," "nigger," "cunt," and "jew" as a verb

There. Can we go on to the next topic, now?

[sockeatsock]

It seems like Western society is yet to come to full terms with rape: what it is and how to deal with it. There are still current issues, like victim blaming and "they didn't say no", which sit uneasy. It will remain a touchy issue until we sort out how we stand on these issues as a society. Unlike rape, there is little ambiguity surrounding murder. This allows people to relax and joke.

As a lot of people point out, we are surrounded by art dealing with murder. It ranges from the serious to the slapstick. This increases our comfort with murder. Rape is always dealt with seriously. This compounds peoples inhibitions about discussing rape.

It's good to see this topic being kept sensible. Rape is an important issue that we rarely discussed intelligently. There are things to discuss.

[Kadayi]

What makes you say that?

The rest of what I wrote.

[Shane]

The rest of what I wrote.

Heh.

That widespread rape occurs in prisons, is a well known fact in America.

[Nalano]

Heh.

That widespread rape occurs in prisons, is a well known fact in America.

That prison rape is a common touchstone for Hollywood comedies is a well-known fact in America. The general public does not, however, pay close attention to what actually goes on in American prisons.

Moreover, what does this ridiculous tangent have to do with anything?

[Kadayi]

That widespread rape occurs in prisons, is a well known fact in America.

Is it? Is it taught in schools? Debated in congress? Also I'm failing to see how it's existence that justifies it according to your previous comment: -

People's indifference to widespread rape in prisons or rape being used as a means to punish perceived debauch behavior, in certain Islamist societies is what I'd describe as cases where rape is considered justified.

[Rii]

Making light of (or even advocating) prison rape does seem to be a phenomenon with relatively broad appeal. It may not be officially sanctioned or make the rounds in polite society, but it reliably crawls out of the woodwork whenever a rapist or child molestor is the subject of discussion. I'm less inclined to see it as an aberration than as a chilling indicator of just how thin society's veneer of 'justice' as meaning something other than 'revenge' is for most folks.

Relating back to the thread at hand, the phenomenon of the ambivalent social response to prison rape doesn't seem to speak to our perceptions of rape so much as it does our perceptions of justice.

[Shane]

Is it? Is it taught in schools? Debated in congress?

I guess, as American nationals you and Nalano would know more about this.

Also I'm failing to see how it's existence that justifies it according to your previous comment: -

No, I do not believe it justifies rape, my point was that people in general don't make a big fuss over it because for them it's not something undeserved.

-----

Moreover, what does this ridiculous tangent have to do with anything?

...To me it seems that this has more to do with the prevailing societal norms than connotations carried by either word. And, this, I guess, is the reason why people don't seem to have problems joking about prison rape.

[soldant]

Frustratingly (in the UK at least) there have been some well publicised cases of false rape accusations recently which will only provide ammunition for those wanting to justify it.

I don't think false rape accusations justify that mentality at all. But it does highlight that such events do occur which is worth remembering. When it comes to rape accusations it seems a lot of people completely forget about a trial and assume guilt, particularly if the alleged offender is male. This is particularly topical with all the debate about "consent". For example if a female apparently consents prior to the act, but at a later time after the act decides that no consent was given, what's the legal position? And how can you prove any of it? Tangent, but points out how difficult rape cases can be in some situations.

I'm less inclined to see it as an aberration than as a chilling indicator of just how thin society's veneer of 'justice' as meaning something other than 'revenge' is for most folks.

But retribution is ultimately part of sentencing. It aims to compensate society and the victims when monetary compensation is clearly inadequate. Punishments inherently have a form of retribution which forms part of the deterrent effect. Not justifying prison rape here, but justice inherently requires some kind of punishment which might be thought of as 'revenge'.

[Rii]

But retribution is ultimately part of sentencing.

In the sense that it is, not that it ought to be. The Romans used to feed Christians to lions too.

It aims to compensate society and the victims when monetary compensation is clearly inadequate.

Bloodlust is not a sentiment deserving of compensation. And if it were, why does the victim themselves not determine the punishment to be carried out? They are certainly in the best position to evaluate their own needs in that respect.

Punishments inherently have a form of retribution which forms part of the deterrent effect. Not justifying prison rape here, but justice inherently requires some kind of punishment which might be thought of as 'revenge'.

This is where we disagree. The only legitimate justification for incarceration is for the protection of others, or (in certain, limited contexts) the individual themselves.

[soldant]

In the sense that it is, not that it ought to be. The Romans used to feed Christians to lions too.

I think this is where we're not agreeing - you seem to think that incarceration or violence is the only form of retribution. In the eyes of the law, it is not. You can also include orders such as community service or hefty fines that go beyond compensation as retribution as well. The idea of 'compensation' is ultimately futile these days thanks to insurance. Personal damages and loss suffered usually isn't worth much, certainly not so much that a major corporation would feel the sting of financial pain. But they would if the corporation was fined a significant amount of money. It goes well beyond simple compensation and into the realm of deterrence and retribution. Hence it's a punishment.

Bloodlust is not a sentiment deserving of compensation. And if it were, why does the victim themselves not determine the punishment to be carried out? They are certainly in the best position to evaluate their own needs in that respect.

Again, punishment is not just violence. The reason why victims themselves do not determine punishments is because they are not an independent third party. You seem to think that retribution is purely about manifestly unreasonable revenge but it isn't. The court makes the decision as it's independent (or at least it's supposed to be) and looks at the case from a neutral perspective. A victim will pretty much always push for excessive punishment and frequently ignore mitigating factors or deny they exist. A court can be bound to consider such factors, and are in a better position to enforce an appropriate punishment.

Retribution in modern sentencing is not bloodlust. It's punitive in nature but that doesn't mean we're going back to smashing people's heads in with sledgehammers. Retribution in a case where a person is genuinely and clearly filled with remorse obviously isn't always justified, but for a man like Ivan Milat (to use an Australian example) it clearly is appropriate. In that case he had absolutely no compassion, regret or remorse for his crimes. The families of the victims would get nothing from simple compensation (how do even compensate for the death of a loved one?) but at least the state can punish the prisoner and attempt to use it to deter others from following the same path. Doesn't always work but it's better to set the legal precedent than to just go "Oh well I know he killed people, but still... let's give him the benefit of the doubt and let him off lightly. I mean nobody's paying attention, right?"

This is where we disagree. The only legitimate justification for incarceration is for the protection of others, or (in certain contexts) the individual themselves.

Again I only mentioned monetary compensation (e.g. damages), that doesn't mean you have to jump immediately to incarceration. Incarceration is mostly used as you suggest and at least here in Queensland the concept of incarceration is also guided by statute. It isn't a free-for-all where judges toss people into the clink for fun and profit. A massive prison system costs too much anyway, but as you've pointed out, some people simply can't be allowed to roam, and some people just can't suffer monetary penalties and get the message. For such people, deprivation of liberty is all that you've got left. Perhaps during that time you can rehabilitate them. Perhaps not.

[Rii]

Ok, I'm going to bail on this because it is leading us way off track. In half-forming responses to what you have written I have noticed some logical gaps in my own thought; I will have to give the matter further consideration.

But where were we? Oh yeah: rape.

[Shane]

But isn't the use of modern penal systems more for the purpose of reform and rehabilitation rather than vengeance?

[Joseph-Sulphur]

I don't understand why people care about this so much. I've not seen a shred of evidence suggesting that cavalier attitudes to the use of the word "rape" make anyone more likely to commit the crime. If you care about the issue volunteer or donate to a charity like this one, don't get angry at insensitive people on the internet.