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Thread: DOTA2 community

  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    DOTA2 community

    I've read about how hostile moba communities are in general, but I really wasn't prepared for the shitfest that it actually is. Recently I got into dota2 beta. Now, I don't have much at all experience from these games, I've played a few rounds of LoL but that's about it. My friends have been tutoring me and I'm learning the basics, but whenever I play with randoms, it ends up in them reporting me for griefing because I do something noobish.

    What's wrong with these people really? In one game I tried to put a ward, but due to my noobness I put it a little off and it didn't serve any purpose. Instead of saying something like: "Hey mate, nice try but that ward is a bit off, why not put it here so it helps?", like a normal person would respond, instead I was totally bashed and told to give away my account to someone not retarded followed up by something rude about my mother.

    Multiplayer games live off of communities and need to have players. The way dota people act, there sure won't be many new players. The game is nice and I'm interested in it, but I don't want to play with total fuckwads. So yeah, that's my sort of rant, discuss.
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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Somehow, despite being a grand repository for all manner of fuckwaddery, the internet is not at a loss for new blood. In fact, I'm inclined to consider that niche titles like DOTA or EVE attract self-seeking fuckwads and their fuckwaddish ilk.

    To put it in a way keeping with the style, "welcome to the internet, fuckwad."
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    It's a sad product of elements of the genre itself + player egocentrism which is absolutely rife in this genre.

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    Lesser Hivemind Node Scumbag's Avatar
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    I generally avoid MOBAs because of the above, but I've heard most run on the logic of make a small mistake at one point, wreck the whole game for your side. Knock on: MOBA players are by and large dickwads. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Then again most WoW players I remember were like that despite WoW's flexability.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I've said my piece elsewhere but personally? Destroy the genre from orbit and start again.
    Edit: MoBA has idiots, but so does every genre.

    In fps they don't have enough time to complain in chat, in RTS you want to shore up your allies weaknesses so they can thrive. In action games I often value dufus who draws all the fire, and then I shock paddle them awake or heal or protect them. "Off you charge brave squire, I have your back'.

    I'm struggling to think of a situation where a poor playing ally would be better afk other than DoTA.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 21-04-2012 at 10:34 PM.
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    Network Hub Bungle's Avatar
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    I am a fan of Heliocentric's writing. My take on the subject is that people are people. I believe many MOBA players are just regular people until they enter their game. It's the game framework itself that gives people cabin fever and makes them so irritable.

    Multiplayer game designers should all take psychology classes and apply that to their game design. People mostly behave in a very predictable manner, so the trick is to make a game that encourages the type of behavior you want and discourages everything else. The original Dota, in this respect, did everything wrong. Dota 2 is just a copy of original, so people will not act any differently in it.

    Valve is going to fight this as hard as they can with a mentoring system, commend/report system, matchmaker, and punishments for quitters. They're trying very hard to make this pig fly. You can't get past basic human psychology, though, so I think they're kidding themselves. I think they should have used their know-how to make a better core game instead.

    I heard they mostly made Dota 2 to break into the Chinese market anyway. It's a game that appeals to people with old computers and slow internet connections - not my thing anyway.

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    I like Dota 2 but it is (along with the rest of its genre) pretty indefensible with regards to its community and perhaps its design too. I do think this genre is just hugely flawed in some way and I'm not sure Valve or anyone can really fix it.

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    Network Hub Gentleman Jim Stacey's Avatar
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    I wouldn't know. No experience with the genre and try as I might, I can't find a way into the beta. People are giving away Dota 2 beta keys on steamgifts like candy but I never win any of them.

    Its reputation does precede it though.

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    This is disheartening to hear. Just finished several games of Super Monday Night Combat (never has a game - SMNC - needed an acronym so badly) and really enjoyed it. Hate the grapple, but its free to play, so I am not going to complain. I can play around it.

    Didn't think I would enjoy a MOBA style game and I know SMNC is not one. However, a lot of people have chimed in that it is MOBA inspired. For this reason I was considering the possibility of trying out the genre. Apparently DOTA is not the place to start.

    anyone have a recommended MOBA for newbies? One where I won't drag a team too badly into the muck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Somehow, despite being a grand repository for all manner of fuckwaddery, the internet is not at a loss for new blood. In fact, I'm inclined to consider that niche titles like DOTA or EVE attract self-seeking fuckwads and their fuckwaddish ilk.

    To put it in a way keeping with the style, "welcome to the internet, fuckwad."
    Pfft, don't compare EVE with DotA. Do you play EVE?

    Anyway, I think the reason the DotA / MOBA communities are so bad is because players who do poorly actively help the other team. It's almost like friendly fire. It's not hard to see how that can breed a very hostile atmosphere.

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    Network Hub Miker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcompany View Post
    This is disheartening to hear. Just finished several games of Super Monday Night Combat (never has a game - SMNC - needed an acronym so badly) and really enjoyed it. Hate the grapple, but its free to play, so I am not going to complain. I can play around it.Didn't think I would enjoy a MOBA style game and I know SMNC is not one. However, a lot of people have chimed in that it is MOBA inspired. For this reason I was considering the possibility of trying out the genre. Apparently DOTA is not the place to start. anyone have a recommended MOBA for newbies? One where I won't drag a team too badly into the muck?
    League of Legends is your best choice. It's probably better than Dota, but not by much. Riot does try and keep the community clean, despite everything that the game's playerbase stands for.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyrieee View Post
    Pfft, don't compare EVE with DotA. Do you play EVE?
    I did. It's not so much "people yelling at you for being useless" as it is "people gleefully destroying everything you hold dear." :P
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    True team games are a bad fit to public play. I don't think it's a design mistake, or that there's a way around that in general. Either you water down the team / cooperation aspect, or player failures affect their team a lot, which naturally makes teammates pissed and also enables trolls. MOBA matches are longer than matches/rounds of most other multiplayer games which scales up how pissed teammates will get if you fail. I think the reasonable conclusion is that at least if you are a newbie, these games are at their best played in actual teams with people you know, so you don't get mad at them and they won't get mad at you. Public play would work for high level players who no longer do so much stupid stuff, if there's good matchmaking so they get matched with other high level players only.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    True team games are a bad fit to public play.
    I beg to differ. There are fine team games that are noob-friendly. TF2 is right there, after all.

    However, bad design makes noobs the objects of ire in team games, and when you have a team game where your actions don't have immediately understandable results and thus your first few games are effectively spent flailing around, yeah, you're gonna get burned. But it's not your fault: It's the designer's fault.

    The game's flow should make sense to the noob and his actions should be intuitive contextually. When he's working with incomplete information as to how his actions affect the larger goal, he is guaranteed to make mistakes. When the game is so tightly scripted that his mistakes can't be covered and thus he loses the game for the team, he's going to be abused by his teammates.

    So you need a game where errors can be made up for, and general gameplay is intuitive. This is a skill; one that many companies unfortunately lack. Alas.
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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    In my experience, LoL is a lot more noob friendly community. So if you have zero experience in the genre, that might be a better place to start.

    I guess it's just the game that brings out the worst in people. The fact that noobs aren't only bad for you, but also good for the enemy, and that the matches go on long after they've been lost. But still, haven't yet seen anyone try to teach others, only to bash. And in the last 10 minutes when the game is lost people just tell how their team sucks and they were best anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I beg to differ. There are fine team games that are noob-friendly. TF2 is right there, after all.

    However, bad design makes noobs the objects of ire in team games, and when you have a team game where your actions don't have immediately understandable results and thus your first few games are effectively spent flailing around, yeah, you're gonna get burned. But it's not your fault: It's the designer's fault.

    The game's flow should make sense to the noob and his actions should be intuitive contextually. When he's working with incomplete information as to how his actions affect the larger goal, he is guaranteed to make mistakes. When the game is so tightly scripted that his mistakes can't be covered and thus he loses the game for the team, he's going to be abused by his teammates.

    So you need a game where errors can be made up for, and general gameplay is intuitive. This is a skill; one that many companies unfortunately lack. Alas.
    I disagree. TF2 is noob friendly because the teams are generally larger so one person's mistakes won't matter as much. I don't believe dumbing down a game is going to make any less prone to rage. I would point out left 4 dead. The game is very intuitive compared to ARTS games like dota but because it stresses team work and competition, it still gets complaints of bad community, rage, etc.

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    I have no interest in such games, but I'd think the main way to improve the situation would be for us (not including me) to play the games, be nice to people, and ignore/report the dicks.

    I'd imagine that the first impression drives away a lot of the nicely behaved people... but what we really need to do is flood it with nice people.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    but what we really need to do is flood it with nice people.
    From here on, this will be my strategy in life :D
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    In my experience, LoL is a lot more noob friendly community. So if you have zero experience in the genre, that might be a better place to start.
    YMMV with this, my experience with what I played of the LoL community was actually worse than my experience so far with the Dota 2 community, but then again I have fewer games of the latter played than the former.

  20. #20
    Lesser Hivemind Node Scumbag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koopler View Post
    I disagree. TF2 is noob friendly because the teams are generally larger so one person's mistakes won't matter as much. I don't believe dumbing down a game is going to make any less prone to rage. I would point out left 4 dead. The game is very intuitive compared to ARTS games like dota but because it stresses team work and competition, it still gets complaints of bad community, rage, etc.
    TF2 does not have a structure where if one player keeps getting eaten by another single player over and over the person doing the eating does not become ultra-powered. You get more kills and whatnot, but in the context of the match you are not growing THAT greatly.

    I have no interest in such games, but I'd think the main way to improve the situation would be for us (not including me) to play the games, be nice to people, and ignore/report the dicks.

    I'd imagine that the first impression drives away a lot of the nicely behaved people... but what we really need to do is flood it with nice people.
    While this is a nice thing to think, its like zombies: One zombie can make a bit of a mess, but in the end it can all be sorted out and things will be back to normal quickly. The zombie problem however is they are always in such numbers that for every one you shoot down, there will be still 20 more to sort out. When there is no more room in hell, the angry shall wander the Internet.
    Last edited by Scumbag; 22-04-2012 at 11:42 AM.

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