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  1. #21
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    Jim's kind of an interesting exception. Most games writers play many different games, but rarely have the time or inclination to play just a handful long enough to master them. Hardcore gamers are largely self-defined by commitment sufficient to achieve mastery- hundreds to thousands of hours. Jim has played both Quake 3 and EVE to this level.

    It's one of the things that makes Jim such a valuable writer to have around.

  2. #22
    Network Hub Wizlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider Jerusalem View Post
    surely you can appreciate the difference between his platform on grantland and some randoms in a comment thread.
    I can't see the problem with responding to perceived snobbery. He's a smart guy who has spent his gaming time on consoles. I'm sure he gets plenty pissed and rolls his eyes when he hears pc fans moan about consolisation.

  3. #23
    Network Hub Wizlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arathain View Post
    Jim's kind of an interesting exception. Most games writers play many different games, but rarely have the time or inclination to play just a handful long enough to master them. Hardcore gamers are largely self-defined by commitment sufficient to achieve mastery- hundreds to thousands of hours. Jim has played both Quake 3 and EVE to this level.

    It's one of the things that makes Jim such a valuable writer to have around.
    I hadn't thought of it like that, but that's another reason why his writing can be interesting. Really need to read his book sometime.

    I was thinking rather that Jim's stomping ground often seems to revolve around landscapes and buildings - he likes reading and writing about that, be it in games or the real world, and it always results in some really interesting writing from him. I guess I tend to think of him as more of a non-fiction writer, whereas I think Quinns and Gillen (the former's travel writing notwithstanding) often seem to me more fiction writers. Brooker has a foot in both camps.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Jim wrote a book?

    Edit: Yes, Jim wrote a book:

    http://www.amazon.com/This-Gaming-Li.../dp/0472116355

    Is that the most profitable (for you, Jim) way for me to buy it?

    Also, SONYLAND whathefuckmanithoughtyouwerecool
    Last edited by Smashbox; 03-05-2012 at 03:16 AM.

  5. #25
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    I don't understand where this bloke is coming from. JRPGs are usually far more complex than The Witcher 2, with their turn-based combat instead of plain old self explanatory hacking and slashing. If he thinks The Witcher 2 is an "incredibly complicated" experience then he should try playing Realms of Arkania.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Meanwhile we lambast Eastern European RPGs
    What's an Eastern European RPG? Name me some (other than The Witcher series).

  6. #26
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    What's an Eastern European RPG? Name me some (other than The Witcher series).
    gothic/risen series, drakensang, grotesque tactics 1/2 (if you count germany as eastern europe), space rangers, mount & blade, two worlds 1/2, planet alcatraz, a farewell to dragons, etc.

  7. #27

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    instead of plain old self explanatory hacking and slashing.
    If you play W2 as "plain old self-explanatory hacking and slashing," you will not get far.

    But then, we're aware of your rather... limited understanding of modern games.
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  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Personally, I think it's humorous that we're blind to our own conventions, [?tangent]
    Um, I'm not 100% certain of the relevance to my post (I'm guessing it's more on a tangent?), but I can see that it might have sounded like I didn't class it as mature because of dwarf cock lines.

    Rather what I meant to say was that I don't believe that including such things makes the game mature. Adult-oriented in the same way that a movie like Saw isn't intended for kids, but not like Planescape Torment dealing with more mature themes. I don't actually object to the content, but I don't think that it should be hailed as the mature game of the decade just because it doesn't subscribe to the fantasy of valiant knights and crap that never actually happened.

    Then again absolutely nothing in the storyline engages me and I don't really care for any of the characters (or maybe it's the gameplay which gets in the way) but that's just my opinion.

  10. #30
    The environments, however finely rendered, are rarely convincing and almost always have the feel of digital Skinner boxes.
    How can an environment's art style be a Skinner box?

    D-does he know what the word means?

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    I should really get back to Witcher 2 now that I have a nice rig. Performance problems stopped me in that second act or whatever.

    But really when praising pc-gaming, I would not bring up Witcher. Especially not the #2. It's menus and user interface are a horrible console mess, even though it so far isn't released on them. Also I have never been able to enjoy the combat in Witcher 2, the animation delay is just too frustrating. Geralt never does stuff when you press the button and it's just stupid hit and running with you dodging all over the place. At some point I tried to look for videos of good players playing it, to see what I'm doing wrong. But it seemed that they too just hit and run. It looks fantastic and it's story is interesting and I have nothing against some mature elements (though I may blush a bit if missus is watching) but the playing of the game is very unappealing to me.

    I laughed at Yahtzee's attempt to play it, but seriously, I can't really blame him.
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  12. #32
    Network Hub Miker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    I should really get back to Witcher 2 now that I have a nice rig. Performance problems stopped me in that second act or whatever.But really when praising pc-gaming, I would not bring up Witcher. Especially not the #2. It's menus and user interface are a horrible console mess, even though it so far isn't released on them. Also I have never been able to enjoy the combat in Witcher 2, the animation delay is just too frustrating. Geralt never does stuff when you press the button and it's just stupid hit and running with you dodging all over the place. At some point I tried to look for videos of good players playing it, to see what I'm doing wrong. But it seemed that they too just hit and run. It looks fantastic and it's story is interesting and I have nothing against some mature elements (though I may blush a bit if missus is watching) but the playing of the game is very unappealing to me.I laughed at Yahtzee's attempt to play it, but seriously, I can't really blame him.
    I played the Witcher 2 on a console (won a review copy from CD Projekt), and I can tell you that it's a horrible console mess on console as well ;) And I don't think the combat is on that much of a delay, it's just that animations take a long time to play out. Putting away swords, though, that takes years. I personally think Geralt's collision with the environment is the most problematic part of the combat.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Rather what I meant to say was that I don't believe that including such things makes the game mature.
    Yeah, but that's a cheap shot at any rate. Just choose some aspect that you don't find mature, and argue from the position that such an aspect doesn't make the subject mature. Not every aspect need be in direct service of making the subject mature.

    I can and do discuss philosophy in pubs. Does the venue enhance the maturity? Probably not. Should we eschew pub scenes because they don't add to the maturity? Fuck no. Just because it's not universally staid doesn't mean it isn't mature. Similarly, I like to pepper my own speech with cursing. I say fuck a lot. Does saying "fuck" enhance the discussion? No. But it doesn't change the point, either.

    My tangent was alluding to this point. We can pick apart anything if all you need to dismiss something is a piece of arguable immaturity. Likewise, not finding the subject matter interesting - as you say, the story doesn't engage you - doesn't change the subject matter.

    Personally, after having played through the campaign one and a half times, the most memorable moments in my mind were Geralt's paid gig working for a ridiculous fop of a king he's contemptuous of for lack of better prospects, and Geralt's choice to throw a noble to an angry mob with insufficient evidence to condemn him because of the importance of morale in a nebulous rebellion.
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  14. #34
    I say fuck a lot. Does saying "fuck" enhance the discussion? No. But it doesn't change the point, either.
    If a show interrupts an intense philosophical discussion with a Wet T-shirt contest, the meaning of the philosophy has changed. Putting stuff into a game changes the context, which makes everything around it different.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Yeah, but that's a cheap shot at any rate. Just choose some aspect that you don't find mature, and argue from the position that such an aspect doesn't make the subject mature. Not every aspect need be in direct service of making the subject mature.
    That'd be a fine statement to make... except that a lot of people bring up the whole anti-fantasy aspect as an example of why The Witcher is a more mature game.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R-F View Post
    God, I love console gamers. They're so funny.

    I love how bad most "game reviewers" these days are at games too. It's hilarious.
    Indeed. Though I remember dying in the Witcher 2 tutorial and being rudely transferred to the main menu screen. That seemed excessive.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    So what are mature RPGs then? any recommendations (pst is one i would believe)

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackShandy View Post
    If a show interrupts an intense philosophical discussion with a Wet T-shirt contest, the meaning of the philosophy has changed.
    Actually, no.

    No, it hasn't.

    Well, okay, maybe it got sexier.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That'd be a fine statement to make... except that a lot of people bring up the whole anti-fantasy aspect as an example of why The Witcher is a more mature game.
    And they have a point: The morality isn't your bog-standard black-and-white. Even without the prostitutes, the QTE fistfights and the dirty language, the politics are pretty grey. Very grey. Kinda dirty altogether, really.
    Last edited by Nalano; 03-05-2012 at 10:14 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  19. #39
    Lesser Hivemind Node fiddlesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider Jerusalem View Post
    gothic/risen series, drakensang, grotesque tactics 1/2 (if you count germany as eastern europe)
    Counting Germany as an Eastern Europe country seems like more than a bit of a stretch. Maybe Continental Europe would be a better term. AWhich raises the question, are there any good RPGs made in France?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz
    So what are mature RPGs then? any recommendations
    Could you be a bit more specific? To you, what criterias would a mature RPG need to fulfill? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm genuinely curious.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    I thought it was considered mature/adult not because of the naked flesh and the swears (though the way they were handled/included showed some), but due to the moral greyness, lack of black/white, and the choices with delayed consequences... the necessary and lesser evils and all that.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackShandy View Post
    If a show interrupts an intense philosophical discussion with a Wet T-shirt contest, the meaning of the philosophy has changed. Putting stuff into a game changes the context, which makes everything around it different.
    No it doesn't.
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    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
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