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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    ... and in many other European countries "denying the Holocaust" is still illegal.
    Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but this almost sounds as if you find this questionable.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    On your place i would worry about game being bad,and not about lack of swastika in game.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic View Post
    Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but this almost sounds as if you find this questionable.
    You could see this as a violation of freedom of speech. After all, in principle everyone is allowed to say something monumentally stupid (like that the holocaust never happened), and we don't have laws that ban saying other stupid things like "WW1 never happened" or "all roman emperors were werwolves". Freedom of speech is not ultimate though, and there are many laws that restrict what you can and can't say in public like libel, slander andhate speech laws, and you could reasonably classify holocaust denial as hate speech (usually against Jews and/or Israel and their "worldwide conspiracy").

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    Freedom of speech is not ultimate though, and there are many laws that restrict what you can and can't say in public like libel, slander andhate speech laws, and you could reasonably classify holocaust denial as hate speech (usually against Jews and/or Israel and their "worldwide conspiracy").
    Something along these lines, yes.

  5. #25
    Lesser Hivemind Node Labbes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woundedbum View Post
    I think the more important question is why does he have two testicles?
    I'm glad my cup is already empty or I probably would have choked on my tea. The developers have obviously not seen the documentary by famous German historian Harald Schmidt.

    Apart from that, I don't care so much about swastikas or not in my game, I just wish there was a German demo :/

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    After all, in principle everyone is allowed to say something monumentally stupid (like that the holocaust never happened), and we don't have laws that ban saying other stupid things like "WW1 never happened" or "all roman emperors were werwolves".
    Right, somebody who proclaims that the horrors Germany inflicted upon Europe, including its Jewish people, simply never happened is exposing himself as a pitifully ignorant person whose views are unworthy of serious consideration. And if we ever get to a point where this is no longer true, I don't have much faith in a law doing much to change that.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
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  7. #27
    Network Hub Stellar Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    "all roman emperors were werwolves".
    As a historian I can confirm this.
    Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 1982.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellar Duck View Post
    As a historian I can confirm this.
    I also have it on good authority that they took their empire from vampires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    Right, somebody who proclaims that the horrors Germany inflicted upon Europe, including its Jewish people, simply never happened is exposing himself as a pitifully ignorant person whose views are unworthy of serious consideration. And if we ever get to a point where this is no longer true, I don't have much faith in a law doing much to change that.
    A law wouldn't change it, you're right. If people believe the idea, then no law in the world will stop it from spreading. The scary part is that people can hold ideas completely devoid of truth and justify them with pseudo-logical thinking, like fake moon landings or non-holographic Tupacs being alive.

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I would have thought that, being Australian, you'd remember that designing a "one size fits all" approach isn't always the best thing to do.
    I never said that it was a good thing. But it's curious that building a game around a particular culture's sensibilities is only a problem when that culture is other than American. The most noteworthy game this nation has produced in recent history is about an American city; Sweden's largest developer has made a living out of pandering to American sensibilities, and perfectly legitimate games have been quashed entirely beneath the heel of Anglo cultural sensibilities. But no, those fucking Germans how dare they influence the development process.
    Last edited by Rii; 05-05-2012 at 05:04 PM.

  10. #30
    Wow. I played through the whole game and I didn't even notice the lack. I guess it's an issue of effort vs. reward for them. If I'm any indication, apparently having two versions may not really be worth it, because I didn't even notice. It's not exactly a historical military simulation, so how much would swastikas really add?

    I'm sure there's a good discussion to be had around the banning of certain images, but I'm going to bow out so I can go blast some more nutsacks off.


    P.S. - everyone do yourselves a favour: turn off your computer right now and go read Maus. Trust me.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Plenty of strategy games have swapped out swastikas for iron crosses/Balkenkreuz over the years and there's never been much of a fuss. For the die hard realists there have been mods to put them back in.
    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
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  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookeeper View Post
    P.S. - everyone do yourselves a favour: turn off your computer right now and go read
    Hell, even getting this far into the sentence...
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    I never said that it was a good thing. But it's curious that building a game around a particular culture's sensibilities is only a problem when that culture is other than American. The most noteworthy game this nation has produced in recent history is about an American city; Sweden's largest developer has made a living out of pandering to American sensibilities, and perfectly legitimate games have been quashed entirely beneath the heel of Anglo cultural sensibilities. But no, those fucking Germans how dare they influence the development process.
    I agree with you there, but still in applying a single standard, if we're going to criticise the US for flying off the handle about stuff that affects them (and I'm with you on that one) we're going to have to do it for others, like the Germans. That said, it's more interesting in the German case because almost everyone in the Western world knows exactly who the Nazis were and that their symbol was the Swastika and they weren't particularly nice people. It's almost like Germany wants to completely forget that WW2 ever happened.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    It's almost like Germany wants to completely forget that WW2 ever happened.
    Ironically, unlike the Japanese occupation of Manchuria or the Turkish massacre of Armenians, the Germans were not allowed to conveniently forget that aspect of their past. In fact, they may be the only nation that has had to collectively own their wrongdoings.

    Hell, just about every nation would love to conveniently forget horrible aspects of their pasts and often do - I don't hear Americans commonly talk about a peculiar institution, nor do I hear Brits going on about the side effects of applying Adam Smith's principles to India.
    Last edited by Nalano; 07-05-2012 at 05:15 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  15. #35
    Lesser Hivemind Node Labbes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    It's almost like Germany wants to completely forget that WW2 ever happened.
    That's just not true at all. Like Nalano said, the Germans have collectively remembered WW2 and all the bad things that happened at least since the generation of '68. Most people I know have been to a concentration camp, or even have talked to people who were there at the time.
    The banning of nazi symbology is in place to be able to easier punish neonazis and to prevent them from spreading their ideology unchecked. Whether that makes sense or not is debatable, but personally I don't believe this infringes on my freedom of speech, and it certainly doesn't make anyone in Germany forget. After all, we are confronted with history every 100 metres.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Ironically, unlike the Japanese occupation of Manchuria or the Turkish massacre of Armenians, the Germans were not allowed to conveniently forget that aspect of their past. In fact, they may be the only nation that has had to collectively own their wrongdoings.
    Just so long as nobody brings up a Swastika?

    Quote Originally Posted by Labbes View Post
    The banning of nazi symbology is in place to be able to easier punish neonazis and to prevent them from spreading their ideology unchecked. Whether that makes sense or not is debatable, but personally I don't believe this infringes on my freedom of speech, and it certainly doesn't make anyone in Germany forget. After all, we are confronted with history every 100 metres.
    I don't know that it has much to do with free speech but rather that you get ridiculous cases where the use of a swastika as part of an anti-fascist symbol was at first instance a crime shows that Germany have gone far too far with it. The over-zealous banning of the Nazi Swastika seems pretty ridiculous. I'm certain they can litigate against hate-groups and still allow the swastika in other contexts, particularly when the swastika itself isn't an original Nazi symbol.

    Then again, it's Germany's country, I don't live there so I can't accurately comment on feelings regarding the Nazi Swastika. It's their right to ban it should the people so choose. Still the fact that it isn't allowed in one country shouldn't suddenly transplant to others... though in this case it's obviously just devs being lazy.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Just so long as nobody brings up a Swastika?
    There's more to post-war German history than video games, Soldant.
    Last edited by Nalano; 07-05-2012 at 06:04 AM.
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  18. #38
    Lesser Hivemind Node Labbes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I don't know that it has much to do with free speech but rather that you get ridiculous cases where the use of a swastika as part of an anti-fascist symbol was at first instance a crime shows that Germany have gone far too far with it. The over-zealous banning of the Nazi Swastika seems pretty ridiculous. I'm certain they can litigate against hate-groups and still allow the swastika in other contexts, particularly when the swastika itself isn't an original Nazi symbol.
    It's true that it's quite sad the swastika was not allowed for anti-fascist purposes (and the poor guy was never recompensated), but the law was changed and it can be used in anti-fascist contexts now. There are many more symbols that are banned (for instance the swastika going the other way), and I believe also some songs.

    Still the fact that it isn't allowed in one country shouldn't suddenly transplant to others... though in this case it's obviously just devs being lazy.
    I agree with that, but as you said, can't help the devs being lazy.

    Edit: I don't believe the use of a swastika results in a prison sentence, so it's not a crime per se; iirc you are just fined and the banned items are confiscated.

  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labbes View Post
    It's true that it's quite sad the swastika was not allowed for anti-fascist purposes (and the poor guy was never recompensated), but the law was changed and it can be used in anti-fascist contexts now. There are many more symbols that are banned (for instance the swastika going the other way), and I believe also some songs.
    Is fighting Nazi Germany sufficiently anti-fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Labbes View Post
    Edit: I don't believe the use of a swastika results in a prison sentence, so it's not a crime per se; iirc you are just fined and the banned items are confiscated.
    I don't know about the distinction in German law but in general a 'crime' doesn't have to entail a prison sentence, it's rather an offence against the state/the public.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Is fighting Nazi Germany sufficiently anti-fascist?
    Arguably, not when they're used in lieu of an actual plot. Y'know, just pick from the pile: Vaguely Middle-Eastern terrorists, Soviet super-soldiers, mindless zombies, Martian invaders, Nazi Schutzstaffel. If there's no thought process involved, how could you call it anti-fascist?
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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