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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic View Post
    Agreed. Topless men don't fight better by wearing little more than a smile/super serious expression.
    I'm not saying it's realistic. I'm saying it's thematically relevant. They are showing off their sexiness, but that sexiness is in muscles and strength, which affects combat performance.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I'm not saying it's realistic. I'm saying it's thematically relevant. They are showing off their sexiness, but that sexiness is in muscles and strength, which affects combat performance.
    No, that's not "sexiness". A toned stomach is not a primary or secondary sexual characteristic. Boobs are.


  3. #23
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    You obviously haven't seen Mikel Arteta swapping shirts after a match.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    It sounds like it involves sports, so likely not.


  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Casimir Effect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    No, that's not "sexiness". A toned stomach is not a primary or secondary sexual characteristic. Boobs are.
    I think you might find it is for the majority. Else why do so many women turn up to cheer Rafael Nadal? Or that bland werewolf guy in Twilight?
    Toned stomach for guys kind of equates either to boobs or ass for women. Sure it isn't as blatently sexual but it ranks equally up there on the desirability scale when to comes to physique.

  6. #26
    Activated Node qizarate's Avatar
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    Equating the sexualisation of a man's stomach with the sexualisation of boobs and ass is...well...it's a little disingenuous.

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    I tried this quickly. Liked how your character wasn't the plot's central character, have any major games done such? Maybe they have, can't recall. I only played the first fight but the combat looked like it could have some depth. Aimed shot seemed to cause double delay but only 150% damage, compared to normal shot. So you shoot twice with normal shots in the same time and thus cause 200% damage? Or did I not understand the mechanics correctly.

    Visuals are pretty and the writing wasn't bad either. I got vaguely interested in the plot, characters and the world. However I can't see myself playing this on desktop. It looks and feels like an iGame. Might suit Pads perfectly. That said you might want to re-evaluate the pricing. 25 euros is a hefty price for an indie game, and you can get a lot of stuff from steam with that. With that price you are relying much on good will, me thinks.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    Rafael Nadal?
    Better example than mine, because, unlike Arteta, Nadal isn't a pretty face, just a perfect physique.

    Quote Originally Posted by qizarate
    Equating the sexualisation of a man's stomach with the sexualisation of boobs and ass is...well...it's a little disingenuous.
    It could be, depending on context, but when the context is a video game where all the characters are represented as sexy sexpots showing off their sexiness, I think it is broadly similar.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    It could be, depending on context, but when the context is a video game where all the characters are represented as sexy sexpots showing off their sexiness, I think it is broadly similar.
    It's not! A stomach has no sexual validity whatsoever. It might show that you're fit, active, strong and so forth - these are things people tend to look for in partners - but it doesn't have any sexual relevance.

    Boobs do. They're secondary sexual characteristics, and in a way so are the hips/buttocks of women, because wider hips = less risky childbirth. Society dictates which sizes are more attractive at any given time - in the mediaeval ages, I believe a smaller bust was considered more attractive, whereas in recent decades we've seen a love for the fuller bust, although it seems like it's declining somewhat.

    A toned stomach's appeal is closer to having a preference for a certain hair colour. They're not factors sexually. It's perhaps obvious that with working out comes greater sexual performance (due to greater stamina, control over one's body and so forth), but it's not something your body is tuned to look at.

    If you give a male character a six pack and expose it, you're saying he's fit, active, strong and so on.
    If you give a female character a set of FF cup breasts and armour/clothing that accentuates it (and don't even think about getting me started on boob armour), you're saying LOOK AT THESE TEETEES. Not "she's a strong, capable warrior", not "she's fit and healthy", simply "BOOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"


  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    It's not! A stomach has no sexual validity whatsoever.
    But yes, of course it has sexual validity. Everything that makes another person a more likely sexual partner has sexual validity, at least for the person judging the attractiveness. Humans are so far off the beaten path of evolution that in these days it's hard to argue that just "low-level" characteristics play an important role in sexual preferences.

    Apart from that, physical fitness is/was pretty much one of the most relevant features for classic (and also female) decision making when it comes to mating. Stronger and fitter individuals signal a greater chance of healthy and survivable offspring.
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  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Well women have always assured me that naked male upper body is indeed sexually attractive, although males themselves rarely consider it as such.
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  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    I'm not arguing that "just low-level characteristics" play an important role, I'm saying a toned stomach is not considered a sexual characteristic.

    It may be that a person desires to have a mate with a toned stomach (just as people have desires for larger women, hairier men, red heads, etc), but it has no sexual validity at all. Like someone who's well groomed, it shows they look after themselves and take care of their body, which is a desirable trait in a partner, but it's not a purely sexual thing at all.

    Sex benefits from it, yes, but it's a small factor.


  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    I'm not arguing that "just low-level characteristics" play an important role, I'm saying a toned stomach is not considered a sexual characteristic.

    It may be that a person desires to have a mate with a toned stomach (just as people have desires for larger women, hairier men, red heads, etc), but it has no sexual validity at all. Like someone who's well groomed, it shows they look after themselves and take care of their body, which is a desirable trait in a partner, but it's not a purely sexual thing at all.

    Sex benefits from it, yes, but it's a small factor.
    How does that description not fit breasts and ass.
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  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    How does that description not fit breasts and ass.
    Because breasts, buttocks and hips are all considered sexual characteristics due to being developed during puberty and all having sexual benefits? Full hips mean easier childbirth, a fuller backside would hint towards adequate levels of fat in the body (meaning higher chance of a healthy child, I believe) and boobs are boobs. They've been considered signs of fertility for thousands of years at the very least, but they develop during puberty along with many other aspects.

    Stomachs don't become six packs due to puberty.


  15. #35
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    I see what you're saying, but it's irrelevant.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  16. #36
    Activated Node qizarate's Avatar
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    I think the definition of sexual characteristic you're contending with is loose enough to include "nice hair", so there probably isn't much sense in continuing to contend with it. Perhaps if all of the male characters were given bulging crotches there would be grounds for saying that characters of both genders were sexualised to the same extent. The fact is that in our society a woman showing some skin is considered more sexually charged than a man doing the same thing. It wasn't so long ago that decorous women were encouraged to cover their ankles for fear of inciting male passions. Speaking of which the game rarely if ever seems to show a characters' ankles...ankle fetishists are going to be sorely disappointed.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    I tried this quickly. Liked how your character wasn't the plot's central character, have any major games done such? Maybe they have, can't recall. I only played the first fight but the combat looked like it could have some depth. Aimed shot seemed to cause double delay but only 150% damage, compared to normal shot. So you shoot twice with normal shots in the same time and thus cause 200% damage? Or did I not understand the mechanics correctly.
    Hi jnx, I'm the programmer for this game. Aimed shot has a further bonus to accuracy, that can result in up to 225 % damage. Additional damage from high accuracy is capped, so you'll get less benefit out of it if your attack is already much higher then the targets defense.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Casimir Effect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Because breasts, buttocks and hips are all considered sexual characteristics due to being developed during puberty and all having sexual benefits? Full hips mean easier childbirth, a fuller backside would hint towards adequate levels of fat in the body (meaning higher chance of a healthy child, I believe) and boobs are boobs. They've been considered signs of fertility for thousands of years at the very least, but they develop during puberty along with many other aspects.

    Stomachs don't become six packs due to puberty.
    I'd argue that those characteristics are no longer sexually relevant in the simpler, more animalistic way where the male brain subconsciously sees them and starts things about childbirth and fertility. These days I think there is far more emphasis placed on what society says should be the most desirable shapes and it is here where characteristics such as hair, weight, muscle etc become just as important.
    So while you're right from a purely biological standpoint where, as qizarate said, equality could only really come in the form of having the male characters in tight trousers with bulging crotches, I don't think that is the reality.

    Ultimately I wish this was all optional. Just give a few or even a couple of clothing features in the game: conservatively dressed or whoring it up, preferably with some things in between. Also, more realistic body-types would be nice.

  19. #39
    Activated Node qizarate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    I'd argue that those characteristics are no longer sexually relevant in the simpler, more animalistic way where the male brain subconsciously sees them and starts things about childbirth and fertility. These days I think there is far more emphasis placed on what society says should be the most desirable shapes and it is here where characteristics such as hair, weight, muscle etc become just as important.
    I'm not sure i agree that cultural mores can cancel out millions of years of evolutionary history. Heterosexual men at least are just hard-wired that way, and there's no escaping from it.

    As an aside, i think Christine Love's latter two games 'Don't take it personally babe it just ain't your story', and 'analogue: a hate story' constitute good examples of relatively tasteful anime-style artwork, without overly sexualised female characters. Image for reference: http://gaygamer.net/images/DTIPBIJAY...tipbijays8.jpg

    Frankly, i wish that more gamers would object to this kind of thing. Developers do this because they think we want it, but i honestly believe that the vast majority of the people who buy this will buy it despite, not because of the fact they might catch a glimpse of some elven under-boob. It's a shame, because in principle the game seems quite interesting.

  20. #40
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    I think this game has great art. The skimpy clothes are nothing out of the ordinary if you consider that other RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights feature large bosomed paladins wearing armor that reveal their full cleavage, at the price of an exposed throat. There is also The Witcher, an RPG that makes liberal use of nudity, sex and scantily clad females. None of which detracts from its compelling story.

    There are people like me who feel that nudity can add to the game, especially if the dialogue and romance are well written. Others donít like nudity, but since there is the option to turn it off, I think thatís a fair compromise for all.

    This game has a good story, art and class system. I especially like the detailed companions, with their own personality and dialogue, and the fact that players are offered meaningful choices that affect the outcome of the story. We take these things for granted, but unfortunately, these elements are missing from a lot of other rpgs these days.

    I think you have a very unique product, and I would be disappointed if you were to second guess yourself and drastically alter the style of your future games.

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