Games You Want To Love But Can't

[Althea]

Translated: "I have a grudge that I am not willing to let go."

Considering the person in question is Orson Scott Card, I think letting it go makes me the lesser person.

[Nalano]

Considering the person in question is Orson Scott Card, I think letting it go makes me the lesser person.

Who's got two thumbs and called it?

This guy!

[Keep]

This is a personality thing I think. I find it incredibly easy to seperate the person from the product (I'd say its natural even) but i'm always amazed how many people can't do this.

I bet there's a product out there that you couldn't do it for. Because I think it's to do with, well, everybody's personality is incredibly complicated, and usually when you hate someone it's really only one aspect of the person you hate and there's far more to them than that, and usually when someone creates something it's one aspect of themselves that it expresses and again there's more to them than that.

And if you're a bit crude, you won't appreciate that and just knowing who made it will distort your opinion of the product and you'll unfairly hate it regardless of what it's saying on its own merits.

But even if you're more fair-minded, even if you're good at critical distance and even-handed judgments, every so often what the product expresses coincides with that very thing you hate about the person. And if that's the case, no, you won't be able to get over it.

[Nalano]

I bet there's a product out there that you couldn't do it for.

Heart of Darkness was written by a racist imperialist who honestly believed in the sentiment expressed by his contemporary's White Man's Burden. Ride of the Valkyries was composed by a fascist antisemite and was practically used as the anthem for lebensraum.

Such art is still worth consuming.

[Keep]

Heart of Darkness was written by a racist imperialist who honestly believed in the sentiment expressed by his contemporary's White Man's Burden. Ride of the Valkyries was written by a fascist antisemite and was practically used as the anthem for lebensraum.

Such art is still worth consuming.

Right, but those works don't express racist or fascist ideals.

What about something like Sex and Character? Could you read about Otto Weiniger as a person, and then read that and not conflate its anti-semitism and misogyny with his own?

[Nalano]

Right, but those works don't express racist or fascist ideals.

Hell yes they do!

[Keep]

Hell yes they do!

I knew that was a dodgy thing for me to say. What I mean is, the point of, alright, the Ring Cycle is this: it tells an epic fantasy story in order to...actually do something similar to the Lord of the Rings: create a unique mythological identity for the author's nation.

You can interpret the Ring Cycle's themes in loads of different ways - no real work of art slots into a two sentence summary - but I don't think any one of those interpretations boils down to "Jews cause society's problems, let's kill the Jews".

Now there may be scenes in there that suggest (maybe even directly espouse) anti-semitic ideas, but the purpose of the work isn't anti-semitism. Likewise, people may have appropriated the work, or parts of it, to express their own anti-semitic ideas, but again that's got nothing to do with the meaning of the work itself.

So hating Wagner because he was a racist, you can't transfer that hatred onto the Ring Cycle. So it's possible to separate the two and say "Those are great operas (in spite of their composer)". I don't think you could do that if the Ring Cycle really directly was expressing "Jews are the problem, kill the Jews".

[OrangyTang]

Rail Tycoon. Any of them - I just bounce off them, and I don't know why. Usually I can get really caught up in a good construction / sandbox game, and I love Transport Tycoon, but something about the former just leaves me cold. Maybe it's the slightly soulless graphics and overly clinical presentation, there's just no joy in it. Which is a shame, as I've played Transport Tycoon to death and there's nothing else really like it out there.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go re-install OpenTTD and make a rail network that spans the entirety of The West Country...

[Nalano]

I knew that was a dodgy thing for me to say. What I mean is, the point of, alright, the Ring Cycle is this: it tells an epic fantasy story in order to...actually do something similar to the Lord of the Rings: create a unique mythological identity for the author's nation.

And what, pray tell, could possibly be the purpose of rewriting a nationalist mythos?

[Hypernetic]

I am enjoying this

[Kadayi]

No, it isn't. In most cases, it is. In some cases? No. Not at all.

Maybe for you Althea. Personally I'm not so hampered by the extraneous in my assessments. The qualities of a work and it's relative strengths/weaknesses interest me more than the author truth be told. Generally if you dig deep enough you'll find something objectionable about most people.

[Hypernetic]

Maybe for you Althea. Personally I'm not so hampered by the extraneous in my assessments. The qualities of a work and it's relative strengths/weaknesses interest me more than the author truth be told. Generally if you dig deep enough you'll find something objectionable about most people.

I think a valid point for me is that I don't want to give MONEY to someone who I think is a complete asshole. This is what the internet is for though.

[Althea]

Maybe for you Althea. Personally I'm not so hampered by the extraneous in my assessments. The qualities of a work and it's relative strengths/weaknesses interest me more than the author truth be told. Generally if you dig deep enough you'll find something objectionable about most people.

I'm fine with people being a dick from time to time.
I'm not fine with people contributing their money (from writing) and services to homophobic causes.

Pick your battles and all that.

[Keep]

And what, pray tell, could possibly be the purpose of rewriting a nationalist mythos?

Not rewriting - writing. Inventing. Creating. In Wagner's case? Sure, it might have had some sinister undertones. In Tolkien's it pretty certainly didn't, it was to do with being proud of his identity as an Englishman, but perceiving and wanting to fix a flaw in that identity: that it didn't have a mythology associated with it, as the Irish did with Celtic mythology, the Norwegians did with Norse, the Italians did with Roman.

There's a gulf between being proud of your culture and being hateful towards others. As someone who's proud of being Irish, of our music, myths, language, I don't like it being implied that surely therefore I'm a racist.

At the same time, yeah, sometimes the difference can seem not like a gulf but the tiniest of separations. It's something that can slide the wrong way very easily. Whatever about Wagner though, I don't think the Ring Cycle itself is saying "The German people are BETTER than any others, so kill them" - anymore than the Lord of the Rings is saying the same about English people.

[Kadayi]

I think a valid point for me is that I don't want to give MONEY to someone who I think is a complete asshole. This is what the internet is for though.

I'm fine with people being a dick from time to time.
I'm not fine with people contributing their money (from writing) and services to homophobic causes.

Pick your battles and all that.

Whoever talked about money? Certainly not me: -

You need to realise that it's entirely possible to separate the product from the person, and judge each accordingly on their relative merits. Like most people I know I think Bono is a complete cock these days, however that doesn't stop me from appreciating some of the music U2 have produced over the years. Similarly I like Jarvis Cocker, but I don't think everything he's done is golden. It is possible to enjoy a game, a song, a film or a painting and not feel obliged to drop on all fours and hail the creator as some unadulterated genius. Criticism is not a hate crime.

I'm on about assessing a work from a critical perspective within itself, devoid of authorship. Money doesn't even enter into the discussion.

[Althea]

I'm on about assessing a work from a critical perspective within itself, devoid of authorship. Money doesn't even enter into the discussion.

Which is also impossible when the author constantly implements homophobic themes and beliefs into his work, too.

[Kadayi]

Which is also impossible when the author constantly implements homophobic themes and beliefs into his work, too.

Impossible how? If the themes don't sit well with you it doesn't matter who the author is. It's an irrelevance.

Don't presume your limits are universal fare.

[redspielened]

My point was precisely that people were talking about him being rich suddenly invalidated his criticism or points about the financial system. That is a fallacy, not to mention the fact that you don't know what his finances were like before he became rich nor if he has always had these view or not. Simply put, it's very short sighted.

In any case, too much drivel around here for me, so I'll just be off.

[Keep]

My point was precisely that people were talking about him being rich suddenly invalidated his criticism or points about the financial system. That is a fallacy, not to mention the fact that you don't know what his finances were like before he became rich nor if he has always had these view or not. Simply put, it's very short sighted.

I don't think anybody was saying his criticisms were invalid. I think people were just directly insulting him: he's a hypocrite. Or, he's insensitive. Or, he's inadvertently expressing something that's opposite to what he believes himself to be expressing (oh, there's a word for that? Oh man what is it...)



I'm being way harsh on Jonathan Blow in this thread. I actually think it's great and really important that there are game designers like him about. He is all right in my books. But man you gotta admit he acts like a spanner and that article is the spanneriest of spanners to ever span this...uh. Spanner.

[Kadayi]

I actually think it's great and really important that there are game designers like him about. He is all right in my books. But man you gotta admit he acts like a spanner and that article is the spanneriest of spanners to ever span this...uh. Spanner.

^This.

Indeed. I'm sorry Redspielened, but there's nothing insightful about describing money as 'fictional'. It's only 'fictional' when you've a lot of it to spare (as the often gauche extravagances of the wealthy demonstrate). For the vast majority of people money is very much a 'reality'.