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Thread: The God Delusion
23-05-2012, 12:40 AM #141
outoffeelinsobad is in the right of it: You don't need to be Christian or human or a carbon-based life form for four times three to equal twelve.
23-05-2012, 01:12 AM #142
23-05-2012, 01:26 AM #143
23-05-2012, 01:32 AM #144
The ideas of love and morality, however, are essentially only narrative devices, which exist because we have to communicate with one another. That being said, and going back to what Soldant said, they can be addressed in a scientifically verifiable manner, unlike gods, by determining the relative well-being of conscious animals. Morality is not the same thing as a system of beliefs. This is something I've tried to explain to theists a few times, but I've yet to come up with a decent, short-winded explanation.
Also, your relentless desire to be subtly belligerent is somewhat offset by your use of the word "chortle", Kadayi.
For instance, you can't add two apples and two oranges.
23-05-2012, 02:02 AM #145
23-05-2012, 02:10 AM #146
23-05-2012, 02:19 AM #147
Last edited by MD!; 23-05-2012 at 02:25 AM.
23-05-2012, 02:24 AM #148
The teachers' union representative raised her hand and asked what these efficient berry pickers did with the blueberries that were sour or discolored or over-ripe.
"Throw them out, of course."
"Ah. We can't do that."
Any metric depends on what you count as the "population." Most atrocities, discrimination and general inequity are caused by the simple declaration that those who are victimized or disenfranchised under the system aren't people. Once you've decided that getting rid of me is for the greater good, you cease to take my view into it. Once I'm gone, you don't need to consider me in any further calculations, either: I can't vote from the beyond.
Likewise, I hate our city planner with every fiber of my being because she's effectively defined away gentrification by neglecting to consider that people lived in the neighborhoods prior to her planning: Great for yuppies, sucks for everybody else.
23-05-2012, 02:29 AM #149
Perhaps the best we can hope for is to find, and demonstrate to others, that our subjective moralities are more similar at their roots than is obviously apparent.
Last edited by MD!; 23-05-2012 at 02:32 AM.
23-05-2012, 02:36 AM #150
23-05-2012, 02:54 AM #151
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Washington, DC
Last edited by outoffeelinsobad; 23-05-2012 at 03:01 AM.
23-05-2012, 03:15 AM #152
23-05-2012, 04:29 AM #153
The x sign isn't a magic box were you put things in, put other things in, and suddenly get way more than you had.
Think of multiplication as a description. Say I have four apples. Say I have three baskets of four apples. How many apples do I have? Three physical baskets, four physical apples in each. There is no abstraction there. Twelve apples is the total.
Your problem is that you're thinking of the three and the four as both describing apples, and that really doesn't make sense.
Three baskets, four apples. Three baskets, four apples. Your new mantra. Three baskets, four apples.
Same with division. Say there are 12 apples. I'm not going to take four apples out of 12 apples and suddenly be left with only three apples. I'm going to look at 12 apples and say, how many baskets of four apples can I make? Well, I can make three baskets of four apples.
23-05-2012, 05:23 AM #154
23-05-2012, 08:17 AM #155
23-05-2012, 08:37 AM #156
23-05-2012, 01:50 PM #157
With the whole of the weird-ass world of maths available, why would you go with multiplication? Imaginary numbers, now they're unintuitive.
23-05-2012, 03:13 PM #158
A Christian has two general choices when confronted with the quite obviously conflicting implications of the theory of evolution: Deny it in favor of the literal doctrine of the bible, or deny the literal doctrine of the bible in favor of the theory. Nowadays, most people choose the latter, but neither of those is a scientific choice: Both are political choices. In effect, from scientific creationism to intelligent design, Christianity has had to concede ground in a political stage in order to stay relevant in the conflict. Its struggles to find acceptable versions of evolution that it can find palatable are not steeped in science but in theology.
As Christianity has nothing to add to this or any other scientific discipline, its influence is either neutral or regressive. Hence, there have been around 90 years of lawsuits in this country based on that conflict, from Scopes to today. They started from attempts to ban teaching of evolution, but have shifted to effectively have creationist doctrines taught alongside evolution or, as Dubya put it, "teaching the controversy" of the conflicting "theories." Aside from Scopes itself, just about every court battle has ended in a defeat on the side of the Christians, on the basis of the Establishment clause that government can't show favoritism to any one religion.
The only thing that's changed in all this time is the shifting of tactics by Christian organizations to strip their theories of obvious theological references in order to effect legislation that undermines that clause. Again, such is a political choice, not a scientific one, as their goal is the same, and many have argued that this form of attack is really only explained by the Christian mandate to evangelize, which is why they're going after schoolchildren in the first place. In effect, faced with a flagging relevancy in the modern world, Christians and Christian organizations have attempted to retard the processes of science by politically hamstringing it.
They do this in other fields, too - stem cell research comes to mind - but in general terms the conflict is the same: The scientific endeavors are in direct conflict with Christian doctrine, and Christians have either had to twist interpretation of Christian doctrine to accommodate such (leading to the greater irrelevancy of Christian doctrine) or they've taken to battle with it in the political arena. These competing doctrines are not scientific, but are the desperate measures of a sect being left behind.
23-05-2012, 03:22 PM #159
What about Christians in countries where there is no controversy and the Church isn't actively trying to get creationism taught? Rowan Williams I'm fairly sure came out explicitly against teaching anything but evolution in biology over here.
23-05-2012, 03:35 PM #160