Torchlight 2 vs Diablo 3 Discussion Thread

[R-F]

The problem is that in the past you've made it known that you really dislike Blizzard and everything about them. So it leaves me in a position where I'm not sure I can take whatever you say about D3 objectively. Having said that your first post is pretty spot on, I just wish you'd started from there and missed out all the other crap. One point I'd make is that you might not have seen the most of Diablo 3's item/stat system. On the surface it appears to be a balancing act between your primary stat and vitality. Yet there are a number of other stats that benefit specific class skills which can be very important. Also there are stats that can be very good for specific builds, such as attack speed for a healing monk. Or critical chance for an arcane specced wizard. For instance I just found a staff which has less stamina and vitality than my current staff, but it also has +31% crit damage which is proving insanely good for me.

I don't know how I can be called biased. I've said in the past I enjoy Starcraft 2 and I'm eagerly awaiting Heart of the Swarm. I just call out bullshit when it's there.

The issue with that, duff, is that you'd be better off getting a staff with, say, +60 primary stat since that'd give you +60% damage. Obviously it depends on whether crits are additive or multiplicative and what your stats (crit rate, crit damage and total primary stat) are, but 9/10 you'll be better off with just having all your game have +x primary stat.

Those who are playing in Inferno have said that it's only playable with 15+k HP and that doesn't leave a lot of room for other "side stats". You're better off using your +primary stat items.

[Jeremy]

I just finished my first playthrough of D3 and began the first Act of Nightmare, and here are some pros/cons:

Pros

Skills - I really have come around to loving how they did the skill setup. They give us a chance to play our character exactly how we want to, through experimentation. This was something I didn't have a chance to really do in D2, since the penalty for putting together a bad build was to start a new character and level through all the content again. Not to mention, you were essentially forced to level up 2 skills in order to survive in the long term.

Combat - This pretty much ties into the skills for me. Being able to move into the fray, back out, stunning enemies, hitting large groups with AoE damage, etc. was a lot of fun. I really enjoy this, and it will probably keep me playing for a while.

Environments - Destructible environments are truly destructible. It doesn't add anything practical to battles, especially not in Nightmare, but it's nice to see doors explode, tables splinter, rails crumble, etc. It really adds a lot to the feel of combat.

Events - The random events are a really nice touch. I don't know how many are in the game, but I haven't repeated any yet through a few different characters. I do have one complaint though. The rewards for these events are essentially meaningless, especially in Normal. Cracked leather pants for saving a villager's farm from certain destruction isn't exactly worth the price of admission.

Cons

Pacing - I won't add anything here, I agree with the OP. Pacing in this game is just off. So far Nightmare has picked up quite a bit. It adds a few things to the mix, and I am actually starting to get significant amounts of gold.

Resources - I never felt like this meshed very well. I need gold for everything, but enemies in Normal drop such low amounts of gold that I was forced to sell items, which meant I ran out of stuff to make new items, except for the yellow resource, of which I have an endless amount. Yellow items should require all yellow resources, not 24 blue and 4 yellow. I think there is a need for a restricted economy so that a player can't just finish all the content instantly, but it just seemed poorly implemented rather than a well designed restriction.

Short - I felt like I took my time in this game, clearing the maps, dungeons, and random events. It just ended so quickly, and I never felt the tight progression of Diablo 2. Normal is just "trial mode" essentially, and I'm hoping Nightmare(Normal) will be a significantly longer experience. It would be nice to have the threat of death included in my war against hell. Also, as much of a pain as it was, I kind of miss running wild and naked to go pick up the loot on my dead body. 10% damage to my items is a worthless punishment when it costs 100 gold to fix ALL of my gear.

Pro/Con

I forgot to mention this, but I love how easy it is to connect with friends and join games together. Just open your little friend button, and click join. Super easy.

The con is that it's a part of their DRM "service", which means I play a single player game with LAG. If the servers aren't down. If you expect your customers to always be online to play your game, then your company should probably also be online. Just sayin.

[celt]

Thanks, R-F, for the thought and effort put into the original post. I really liked having both both games broken down into their componants and compared. I agreed with the analysis.

I played Diablo 1 and 2 in my day and was sure 3 gonna be mine, all mine. Not any more. Having played the betas for both games, I found Torchlight 2 to be a far more exciting product to play, in total, than Diablo 3.

[Joof]

To be honest, most of the mudslingers seem to have disappeared after D3's release. I'm fairly certain they were shills.

Or they've been playing Diablo 3 instead of arguing about it on a forum?

[R-F]

Or they've been playing Diablo 3 instead of arguing about it on a forum?

Entirely possible. But I mean they're REALLY disappeared.

[flagoon]

I'm casually playing Diablo 3 since launch. I'm at act 3, normal. I also tried a little bit of Torchlight 2 this weekend, but nothing major. This is what I think about D3 vs T2.

1. D3 has much better solution for multiplayer. As I'm playing casually, I don't have friends that are at the same level as I'm all the time. But with Blizzard system I can choose quest, press one key and join anyone. In T2 it took me few minutes to join some games (some were password protected, sometimes I got disconnection). I'm guessing, that when I finally join someone, then I'll be playing alone anyway, because there will be much ahead of me, finishing quests I just started.

2. In D3 I always have some goal. I feel like I'm on the quest to save the world. In T2 I didn't feel the threat. It was casual slaughtering hundreds of mobs, but I couldn't hook up to the story as in D3.

3. Combat pacing. Now this is strange, everyone is telling, that T2 has great feel to combat, but TBH I found it... unresponsive. I was playing on veteran and few times I got to the group of mobs, sometime the boss, I was hitting him, but nothing happened. There were no damage number, it's life wasn't dropping but I see the animation and hear the sound. First few skills were rather dull as well.

4. I'm really glad they add New Game Plus in Torchlight 2. I was missing this one in original. I hope they made this in some smart way. Not only triple mobs life and add some stats to items, but also present some new and original mobs/bosses/mechanics. Right now I don't feel any real danger in them. In D3 boss can do immense damage if you are not awake. In T2 this fights didn't look so intense.

5. Other thing personally I don't like. First few minutes in T2, and I found some legendary item with nice stats. It looks, like legendary items drops faster in T2 than blues in D3 (yeah, yeah, exaggerating). I don't like it. I want to earn this stuff, not avoid it because I have stash full of it.

There is plenty of things I don't like in D3, but it's minor stuff.

Don't get me wrong. I really like D3, but I surely will buy Torchlight 2. Even if I think it's not as good as D3 it's still a great game.

[R-F]

1. D3 has much better solution for multiplayer. As I'm playing casually, I don't have friends that are at the same level as I'm all the time. But with Blizzard system I can choose quest, press one key and join anyone. In T2 it took me few minutes to join some games (some were password protected, sometimes I got disconnection). I'm guessing, that when I finally join someone, then I'll be playing alone anyway, because there will be much ahead of me, finishing quests I just started.

I'll admit that D3's matchmaking system is decent. Unfortunately it just randomly joins you to a game without any indication of what that game contains. If I want to boss rush, I'll have to pick my friends or just randomly join games until I get one that wants to rush to the boss. That's poor design.

TL2 has a lobby system and it works nothing like what you're saying it works like. The world is the game creator's world, with the game creator's quests etc. Games don't show up if you're not at the right level for them, I believe, which is based off the creator's level with a certain leeway to either side.

But the creator can choose to leave off level leeway and set it to friends only so you can join whenever you like.

Compare that with D3 where you can (seemingly, at least) randomly join games with players 20+ levels below you. I had someone on hardcore running Skeleton King at level 27, everyone else was level 8-ish. We got no experience, barely any items and it just sucked.

2. In D3 I always have some goal. I feel like I'm on the quest to save the world. In T2 I didn't feel the threat. It was casual slaughtering hundreds of mobs, but I couldn't hook up to the story as in D3.

lol wat.

Yes, because it's not like you're seeking out the alchemist who was corrupted by whatever that bad guy at the end of the first game was called and that was explained through both cinematic and in game text.

That never happened at all.

3. Combat pacing. Now this is strange, everyone is telling, that T2 has great feel to combat, but TBH I found it... unresponsive. I was playing on veteran and few times I got to the group of mobs, sometime the boss, I was hitting him, but nothing happened. There were no damage number, it's life wasn't dropping but I see the animation and hear the sound. First few skills were rather dull as well.

Outright false. Either you had a terrible build, you were using potato guns against bosses or you're just lying. You can also turn on damage numbers in the main settings.

4. I'm really glad they add New Game Plus in Torchlight 2. I was missing this one in original. I hope they made this in some smart way. Not only triple mobs life and add some stats to items, but also present some new and original mobs/bosses/mechanics. Right now I don't feel any real danger in them. In D3 boss can do immense damage if you are not awake. In T2 this fights didn't look so intense.

What class were you playing as? In Veteran? Veteran's easy, try Elite. In Elite, the vast majority of normal mobs (nevermind bosses) can kill you in one or two hits. And HP isn't vastly inflated, either.

5. Other thing personally I don't like. First few minutes in T2, and I found some legendary item with nice stats. It looks, like legendary items drops faster in T2 than blues in D3 (yeah, yeah, exaggerating). I don't like it. I want to earn this stuff, not avoid it because I have stash full of it.

Random number generator is random.

And, no, no, this is not true at all. I have a stash full of gold items in D3. Literally jampacked full of them. They're either useless (+intelligence on one handed crossbows) or waiting to be sold because of the tiny auction house slots.

[Bankrotas]

<...>

I feel bad and wrong not liking your post and not being able to counter argue you, having not played D3 after release.

[Moraven]

I love my int xbow wielding witch doctor.

They really should have enhanced tooltips on by default. It is not clear that dps on weapon = dps on spells, other than the damage calculator goes up.

D3 public games are restricted by level. If you see a lv 60 join your lv 13 game, it is a either a friend or other account of someone in the game.

[R-F]

I love my int xbow wielding witch doctor.

They really should have enhanced tooltips on by default. It is not clear that dps on weapon = dps on spells, other than the damage calculator goes up.

I used a bow as a wizard. Instead of like, firing his spells from the bow or something, he SWINGS the bow and the spell flies out.

Nice animations, Blizz.

[byteCrunch]

Good news, for those who have taken issue with the skill tree in TL2, it seems Runic has decided to redesign it after the feeback they have recieved over the beta weekend. Here is the quote from one of the devs.

travisbaldree: No way I can respond to every post here - thanks for all the writeups!

The skill tree system WILL be changing. (It's not even really a tree now, but anyway)
We have some changes we are implementing to hopefully better reward continued investment in a skill, and to formalize some of the more physical changes to a skill as you invest so that they appear in more predictable places (many skills DO get big increases to range, additional projectiles, or secondary effects at later investments - it's just hard to tell, because they aren't necessarily available at the 'next' level ), and providing some other bonuses for skills that don't already have them.
We will also be changing the structure of the layout quite a bit, and how it works.

You'll still be spending points as skills unlock, but it'll work a little differently and hopefully you'll agree it is a more rewarding system -*
That won't be debuting during the beta, however.

At any rate, what you're looking at now won't be what we ship.

[Bankrotas]

I used a bow as a wizard. Instead of like, firing his spells from the bow or something, he SWINGS the bow and the spell flies out.

Nice animations, Blizz.

Honestly to me Blizzard always forgot such things.

Good news, for those who have taken issue with the skill tree in TL2, it seems Runic has decided to redesign it after the feeback they have recieved over the beta weekend. Here is the quote from one of the devs.

Now only if they heard issues with lore being not enough revealed. It's quite nice lore actually.

[Xeridian]

Yeah, I feel that Torchlight's "weapon animations are how you deal with groups" are something that pretty much straight up changes the gameplay.



Two main reasons:-
1. Torchlight 2 is in beta and you only have access to the majority of Act 1. There might be issues that arise later in gameplay / the acts like there is in Diablo 3 (the stats / pacing issues in D3 are something that are not in the beta but are in the game later on).
2. Blizzard fanbois are ravenous enough when they get told that there might be competition for D3 coming from a minor one-game studio. I don't want to be flayed.
3. They try to do a lot of things, but at the same time they don't. It all depends.

After seeing you post "coming from a minor one-game studio. I don't want to be flayed." -Prepare to be flayed. lol
Runic games is NOT a minor 1 game studio. You should ALWAYS research the FULL history of a developer before assuming their stance. Runic has had 5 different names between the MAJORITY of their teams assembled and created many games under them, most of them all in the ARPG genre and are the ones whom have perfected it.

Name #1. Condor - (Games: Diablo I [was bought and renamed by Blizzard 6 months before Diablo I's release)
Name #2. Blizzard North - (Games: Diablo I, Diablo II, Diablo II: Lord of Destruction)
Name #3. Flagship - (Games: Mythos)
Name #4. WildTangent - (Games: Fate)
Name #5. Runic - (Games: Torchlight I, Torchlight II)

Runic are the Godfathers of the ARPG genre and Torchlight is the true heir to Diablo. This is why it feels like a "AAA" title and also why the "HEART" of Blizzard has left with these guys and a few others like Red5.

Also, everyone should have known D3 was going to be shit when D3's Lead Producer, "Steve Parker" left Blizzard in January, this year, for undisclosed reasons. Then shortly after that, they made huge changes to the game before release, albeit, the ones no one likes.

[psyk]

I used a bow as a wizard. Instead of like, firing his spells from the bow or something, he SWINGS the bow and the spell flies out. Nice animations, Blizz.

Woahh slow down, your moaning about a wizard CASTING spells instead of FIRING them out of a bow? HAHAHAHAHA



The passwords for the forum and comment section seem to replace each other in firefox and resetting passes all the time is a pain.

[peacebringer7]

ummm forum noob here,where is the main torchlight 2 disscussion?and/or club?

[Faldrath]

This is the main TL2 discussion thread. I'm not sure if there is an RPS club, though.