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  1. #41
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Swayze View Post
    Well guys I think some of you have put me off for now but to be making it clear I was talking about a desktop or imac not a laptop.

    Though there seems to be a lot of unnecessary Mac hate going off.

    P.S to the haters: I've been building my own PC's for the better part of two decades, fancied something different.
    I was off of PCs for a while, due to Windows XP being shite, and Vista even more so.

    Now that Win7 is here, I cant say I miss OSX, especially if you push the system to its limits every day.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    I agree with the general gist of Kadayi's assertion, except I wouldn't say Macs are "idiot-proof" so much as Macs are "idiot-prone."

    I've been in businesses where they bought Macs because a lot of the older staff had trouble understanding the most basic of operations on PC. Right now, though, anybody of my generation has absolutely no excuse for not being computer literate.

    Personally, however, I hate 'em. I'm an ACMT and I hate 'em (also, that certification program is a huge ripoff compared to MCITP or A+). They're basically closed-off PCs for $500 more than an equivalent PC would cost. Also, I have no idea why you'd want to emulate an OS for the purpose of gaming. That's a horribly inefficient use of resources.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    Ah. Well, that seems ingenious or is this the norm?
    Essentially the OS doesn't give you much flexibility in terms of how you work (unlike windows), so it means you know that everyone is on the same page. Which is useful if you're having to jump on other peoples machines, or work with them across files. Also because there's a limited amount of software for OSX, you're not subject too much to people installed doohickeys

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I'd somewhat agree with Kadayi that OS X probably works okay for people who have zero experience with computers, because OS X progressively hides more and more of the underlying OS with each release. Problem is, it's also fairly opaque with its operation; to dig into the system you have to work harder than for Windows.
    Indeed. Generally if there's a problem with peoples machines the IT dept resolve it. Being PC savvy I can generally figure things out, but it's beyond most people.

    Also I find it incredibly ironic that Apple ran those advertisements laughing about UAC in Vista when OSX effectively includes the same thing, as does Linux with its sudo command.
    Yeah OSX has been doing that for years. Generally you're not installing a lot of new software (because it's a work machine rather than a games machine), so it's not noticeable unless you've regular software updates. Still when has Apple ever let the truth get in the way of a good story. Most of their 'I'm a mac' 'I'm a PC' adverts were complete fabrications and half truths, but people lapped them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Right now, though, anybody of my generation has absolutely no excuse for not being computer literate.
    You'd think so, but it's rarely the case I find.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Indeed. Generally if there's a problem with peoples machines the IT dept resolve it.
    Raaaaaage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Most of their 'I'm a mac' 'I'm a PC' adverts were complete fabrications and half truths, but people lapped them up.
    To be fair, the Mac vs PC ads backfired mightily when they hired perennial douchebag Justin Long to oppose professional funny-man John Hodgman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    You'd think so, but it's rarely the case I find.
    People are idiots, but I resist catering to such.
    Last edited by Nalano; 22-05-2012 at 08:04 PM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  5. #45
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Re: Nalano and Kad:

    Everytime I find someone that is obviously computer illiterate, I assume it's similar to my reason for not playing music: I cant be bothered to devote my entire life to it, because thats what it takes for me to be good at it.

    Still, thats only if you "want to be good at computers", following that logic. But mostly, its people afraid of breaking things, afraid of trying stuff out, that dont want to use/cant "use" a computer. Heck, I know an artist, she's about 39 or so, that is absolutely afraid of doing anything more than browsing and checking emails; because she downloaded something once, and it was apparently a virus. Atleast thats what she claims.

    People have the silliest reasons. Anyhow, if you want to have fun on a system, and maybe work on it a bit, go for PC. Definitely.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Everytime I find someone that is obviously computer illiterate, I assume it's similar to my reason for not playing music: I cant be bothered to devote my entire life to it, because thats what it takes for me to be good at it.
    Two things.

    1) Your analogy is flawed. Everybody is good at music. You'd have to be taught out of it in order to be bad at it. You may not have perfect pitch, nor a formal knowledge of music theory, but you and everybody else alive can hold a beat.

    2) We have a 99% literacy rate in this country. Why? Because learning to read is a necessity for securing a place in society. Nowadays, the requirements for dealing with society includes being competent at computers. "Computer literacy" is the right term: Without it, you're fucked.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    1) Your analogy is flawed. Everybody is good at music. You'd have to be taught out of it in order to be bad at it. You may not have perfect pitch, nor a formal knowledge of music theory, but you and everybody else alive can hold a beat.
    You clearly haven't met my mother.

    2) We have a 99% literacy rate in this country. Why? Because learning to read is a necessity for securing a place in society. Nowadays, the requirements for dealing with society includes being competent at computers. "Computer literacy" is the right term: Without it, you're fucked.
    But computer literacy doesn't necessarily mean the same thing it did 10 years ago. One thing Apple has clearly demonstrated is that you can make computing devices (the i things) that are usable by people with zero knowledge of computing but fulfil the majority of the populations requirements for such devices. Unlike a book computers can be made easier to use and that is the future of consumer computing.

    Most people have no interest in or need to understand how computers work and being computer literate for them means knowing how to open a web-browser, read email and use a word processor. Just as I enjoy listening to music but have no interest in learning to play the guitar.

  8. #48
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboonanza View Post
    But computer literacy doesn't necessarily mean the same thing it did 10 years ago. One thing Apple has clearly demonstrated is that you can make computing devices (the i things) that are usable by people with zero knowledge of computing but fulfil the majority of the populations requirements for such devices. Unlike a book computers can be made easier to use and that is the future of consumer computing.

    Most people have no interest in or need to understand how computers work and being computer literate for them means knowing how to open a web-browser, read email and use a word processor. Just as I enjoy listening to music but have no interest in learning to play the guitar.
    In this analogy, Macs would be audiobooks, and PCs "real" books that you have to read yourself.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Re: Nalano and Kad
    I'm not disagreeing with you Quanta. My whole point is that Macs make great work stations because most people aren't computer experts, and they keep them on track.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    In this analogy, Macs would be audiobooks, and PCs "real" books that you have to read yourself.
    Well, it was a pretty bad analogy :)

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboonanza View Post
    You clearly haven't met my mother.
    Oh, I know hopeless tin-eared sods who couldn't clap their hands regularly if they tried. But they were taught to be that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by baboonanza View Post
    but fulfil the majority of the populations requirements for such devices.
    No, you're limiting the population's capability by locking them out of capability. You don't make computers dumber, you make people smarter. That's why we have a mandate for compulsory universal education.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    No, you're limiting the population's capability by locking them out of capability. You don't make computers dumber, you make people smarter. That's why we have a mandate for compulsory universal education.
    Sure, but you can't teach everybody everything. People have natural talents and enthusiasms and you can't teach people who aren't interested. It's like trying to teach girls maths*.


    * Grotesque gender stereotyping employed for comic purposes only. No feminists were harmed in the making of this post.

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    I really prefer to work on OS X, honestly. Windows 7 isn't that bad, but it still sucks in comparison, in my opinion.

    That said, I've been down this road you're thinking of, and it was a tough hike. I would not make that mistake again. The problem comes in two years when your (probably not too powerful to begin with) graphics card begins to sweat a bit. Then a lot. Suddenly, you're stuck with a gorgeous-screened, beautifully designed machine that's getting completely destroyed performance-wise by a nasty little beige box. Unless you're buying a Mac Pro (and you'd be crazy to spend $3500 on a computer), you can't change out those graphics cards. And they're probably glorified mobile graphics cards. And probably underclocked.

    Seriously, fix up your PC, or build a brand-new one. Don't plan to game on Mac hardware.

    It's probably also worth mentioning that any computer you build/buy now will see the types of next-gen-by-virtue-of-console-cycles games that may end up pushing on hardware more than the slackening pace of the game-tech arms race of the past couple of years.

    And I really love Macs. (though I have a lot of philosophical problems with some of the ways Apple seems to be taking cues from its mobile OS's successes, things like the Mac App store, the upcoming, ominously named Gatekeeper security plan that will create onerous restrictions on software developers and push people toward their own Apple-gets-a-cut software sales platform, and several notable examples of productivity-killing software simplification, nay, dumbing down, like the new version of Final Cut, missing settings in Quicktime, the abandonment of Expose, etc., but that's obviously another story)
    Last edited by Smashbox; 23-05-2012 at 05:37 PM.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Also, I have no idea why you'd want to emulate an OS for the purpose of gaming. That's a horribly inefficient use of resources.
    Boot Camp will allow you to run Windows natively without emulation, so it's not quite as bad as you're thinking. That said, it's really a fool's errand.

  15. #55
    Network Hub Stellar Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slick_101 View Post
    [...] they all use boot camp with a pirated version of windows for when games don't have OSX support. [...]
    That seems shitty. If you wanna buy a Mac and then run games the least you can do is fucking buy Windows. Pirating it is super douchey.

    I guess it's even more expensive though. But that's what you get, I think, for buying a system that requires you to run another OS on top of it to do things.

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  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboonanza View Post
    Sure, but you can't teach everybody everything.
    Basic computer usage isn't everything. Consequently, have you heard of the term "core curriculum?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    And I really love Macs. (though I have a lot of philosophical problems with some of the ways Apple seems to be taking cues from its mobile OS's successes, things like the Mac App store, the upcoming, ominously named Gatekeeper security plan that will create onerous restrictions on software developers and push people toward their own Apple-gets-a-cut software sales platform, and several notable examples of productivity-killing software simplification, nay, dumbing down, like the new version of Final Cut, missing settings in Quicktime, the abandonment of Expose, etc., but that's obviously another story)
    "And I really love Macs, except they're overpriced walled gardens with dumbed-down interfaces made to turn people into dependent consumers." You're quite the masochist.
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  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    I could probably write a list of things I fucking hate about Windows, too, to be fair.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    I could probably write a list of things I fucking hate about Windows, too, to be fair.
    The analogy I've always used vis-a-vis M$ v Apple is that Windows is a Ford Taurus - An underpowered sedan that isn't particularly sexy but serves most purposes, can be tinkered with at will, and has a massive network of certified mechanics, dealerships and after-market body shops to call on - and OSX is a VW New Beetle: A sporty compact with a distinctive look, but its hood is hermetically sealed and you have to send it off to the manufacturer for basic maintenance.
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  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    No, you're limiting the population's capability by locking them out of capability. You don't make computers dumber, you make people smarter. That's why we have a mandate for compulsory universal education.
    Where do you draw the line though? By that thinking we could claim that Dwarf Fortress has the best UI ever and if you can't use it you're retarded and should just get better at it. I agree that we have to educate people to use computers properly, but at the same time I'd caution against it because it easily becomes a smokescreen for shitty UIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    I could probably write a list of things I fucking hate about Windows, too, to be fair.
    So could I. The directory structure, particularly when it comes to Windows internal operation, is a mess. Applications litter their files across an obscene number of folders. Application dependencies are becoming a mess (get new game, sit though DirectX reinstall again... then VC++ re-distributable... etc). Windows 8 can't decide if it should run on a tablet or a desktop. Occasionally USB devices just stop working for no apparent reason and won't resume working until you plug them into a different port or reboot. I could go on and on...

    ...but the key difference is that a lot of that stuff isn't generally a problem for a basic user. It's more niggling things that annoy me as a power user. Your average keyboard tapper probably doesn't care that an app has spread files across three folders in AppData, system32, My Documents, and in 4 different places in Program Files. They might start to wonder though why the usual view of a directory is to sort folders first when OSX treats them no differently from files, or why closing all the windows of an app doesn't necessarily close the app itself, or how running apps in the Dock aren't quite as distinguishable from apps that aren't running... well, point being that OSX basically breaks a lot of conventions that other operating systems have implemented as standard. Valid criticisms of Windows (i.e. not 'omg it crashes more lol') tend to focus more on things that don't really impact the end user so much (except maybe the USB device thing, man that can drive me batshit crazy sometimes), while the valid criticisms of OSX impact pretty much every level of the user experience, whether they're a regular user or a power user.

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Where do you draw the line though? By that thinking we could claim that Dwarf Fortress has the best UI ever and if you can't use it you're retarded and should just get better at it. I agree that we have to educate people to use computers properly, but at the same time I'd caution against it because it easily becomes a smokescreen for shitty UIs.
    Oh c'mon. If it was just about smokescreens for shitty UIs, we'd all still be using 2k.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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