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  1. #781
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    I don't know why is this even an issue. This isn't a journalist working in a room full of doritos merchandise, this isn't a gaming site giving better scores to games that are advertised there. This is just a personal matter of an individual who just happens to be a game developer. People should have a modicum of respect and leave the matter to the people involved.

  2. #782
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    The idea is that it has had (at least) the same kind of effect on several people in the gaming press. Doritosgate was about games journalists being in bed with industry in a figurative sense. This is supposedly a more literal version.

    Of course, a very large part of it is indeed just a personal matter that really isn't everyone else's business. The question is whether there are a few bits and pieces relevant to everyone else, hidden within a heap of very personal stuff.

  3. #783
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    With people like Internet Aristocrat parading it around as the reason the internet is corrupt (and this corruption showing by an increase in "feminism" on gaming websites) and that sort of stuff. It's eerilie similar to Jennifer Hepler becoming the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with Bioware.

    Heck, even if the post by this angry ex is true, by taking it seriously we do automatically give credulance to the cause that has been posting death threats, personal information, all sorts of stuff that is too vile for even reddit, telephones, nude pictures, in a manner similar to revenge porn.

  4. #784
    Activated Node seshFriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikey View Post
    I don't know why is this even an issue. This isn't a journalist working in a room full of doritos merchandise, this isn't a gaming site giving better scores to games that are advertised there. This is just a personal matter of an individual who just happens to be a game developer. People should have a modicum of respect and leave the matter to the people involved.
    It is true that people on the internet mad at all the people involved is totally ridiculous. But as far as journalistic integrity goes, if a journalist sleeps with a person whom they also report on and can affect public opinion for that person, the journalist should recognize that as a conflict of interest and defer the story to someone else regardless of whether the journalist thinks they will give unbiased opinion them self.

    I don't want to feed the flames but people here are misunderstanding why, if all this crap is true (sounds like an internet load of trash to me), these events suggest a breach of journalistic integrity.

    Do I care about some dude's tumultuous relationship with a manipulative game developer? NO.
    Do I care about some girl who slept with a bunch of dudes? NO.
    Do I care about journalistic integrity? YES.
    Is this a particularly egregious example of a breach in integrity? NO.

    Look at IGN, or Gamespot, or any big video game publication. Those guys are clearly being paid or given favors for giving good reviews to games. Metal Gear Solid 4 got a 10 on IGN for "Masterpiece". I wonder if they even played it.

  5. #785
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    ITS GAMES. THERE IS NO GAMES JOURNALISM, THERE ARE GAME CRITICS.

    Who the hell would these "journalists" report to? the consumers about products? Its not news, its fucking entertainment.

    For the love of fuck, people.

    This has been a PSA about game critics.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by seshFriend View Post
    I don't want to feed the flames but people here are misunderstanding why, if all this crap is true (sounds like an internet load of trash to me), these events suggest a breach of journalistic integrity.
    Find the coverage that the journalist in question wrote and published after the relationship began. Here's a hint: there isn't any.

  7. #787
    Activated Node seshFriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    ITS GAMES. THERE IS NO GAMES JOURNALISM, THERE ARE GAME CRITICS.

    Who the hell would these "journalists" report to? the consumers about products? Its not news, its fucking entertainment.

    For the love of fuck, people.

    This has been a PSA about game critics.
    You're misinformed. Games journalism is what game critics do. Sure it isn't about Gaza but when a new game comes out that is news. These people report on the news of the video game industry. A game critic is a journalist just as a movie critic is a journalist.

  8. #788
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seshFriend View Post
    YA game critic is a journalist just as a movie critic is a journalist.
    exactly my point.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  9. #789
    Activated Node seshFriend's Avatar
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    ^Agree to disagree?

  10. #790
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    I think Grayson's credibility as a games "journalist" or whatever you want to call it was already in tatters much before all this nonsense about biscuits, and people having sex and all. RPS published some pretty awful interviews. But that's just me.

    As for the games jornalism vs criticism, I think gaming has about a handful of critics proper (Yahtzee, Hardcore Gaming 101, Tim Stone, Adam Smith, others I don't know), the rest are just journalists. There's a difference, but I don't think it's objective enough to put into words and I really don't want to push my views onto others.
    It's like the difference between Ebert and those people who write the IMDb news sections.
    Steam(shots), Imgur, Flickr, Bak'laag, why do you forsake me?

  11. #791
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    ITS GAMES. THERE IS NO GAMES JOURNALISM, THERE ARE GAME CRITICS.

    Who the hell would these "journalists" report to? the consumers about products? Its not news, its fucking entertainment.

    For the love of fuck, people.

    This has been a PSA about game critics.
    Kieron Gillen himself wrote a manifesto about New Games Journalism, so I think you're the one who is mistaken here.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by seshFriend View Post
    It is true that people on the internet mad at all the people involved is totally ridiculous. But as far as journalistic integrity goes, if a journalist sleeps with a person whom they also report on and can affect public opinion for that person, the journalist should recognize that as a conflict of interest and defer the story to someone else regardless of whether the journalist thinks they will give unbiased opinion them self.
    That's totally correct, but in this case what's being claimed by some is that if a journalist writes about a person, he should defer sleeping with them in future to someone else. Which is silly.

  13. #793
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Kieron Gillen himself wrote a manifesto about New Games Journalism, so I think you're the one who is mistaken here.
    no, its called an opinion.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  14. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Kieron Gillen himself wrote a manifesto about New Games Journalism, so I think you're the one who is mistaken here.
    That's the one where he says games journalists are basically travel writers to imaginary places right? And not actual journalists? Did you read it?

  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    That's the one where he says games journalists are basically travel writers to imaginary places right? And not actual journalists? Did you read it?
    thats not what i got out of it. imo hes pushing for "reviewers/critics" to focus less on the game and more on the experience, and evolve INTO "journalists".

  16. #796
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    That's the one where he says games journalists are basically travel writers to imaginary places right? And not actual journalists? Did you read it?
    He was advocating a new way to be a games journalist, not claiming that all games journalists would be like this.

    Anyway, the point is that it's seen as a form of journalism by a lot of people, even the people behind RPS (or previously behind RPS).

  17. #797
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Yesterday the woman involved has had her Twitter and Tumblr hacked, her personal information including phone numbers, family phone numbers, street addresses and PayPal information made public. She has received unending abuse on all channels, including to her personal phone and address. People close to her have received similar abuse. People who have made it clear they are against the abuse have received small fractions of the abuse too. There is, without question, a huge amount of abuse to go around.
    And this is why people shouldn't flock to this non-stories like there was some terrible conspiracy to be unfolded. It is sad that the internet ends up being used for this.

    John Walker wrote something interesting about the issue in his blog.
    Last edited by Tikey; 20-08-2014 at 05:11 PM.

  18. #798
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    That's indeed a good read and gives some insight into how these things work.

  19. #799
    Activated Node seshFriend's Avatar
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    I hate this discussion. Both sides are dumb. People defending Zoe Quinn are ignoring a body of evidence that she has done very manipulative things for self promotion using the internet in the past all under the guise of social justice and the people attacking her are just going way overboard with all sorts of ad homonym attacks and nefarious deeds.

    A part of this controversy we might be overlooking is that some gamers feel that members of the video game media are championing social justice issues to an extreme that is unnecessary. I think that it is a reasonable discussion to have.

    An example not related to Zoe Quinn because sheesh we don't need more Zoe Quinn.
    http://orogion.deviantart.com/journa...late-380891149

  20. #800
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Championing social justice is bad? What's this "extreme"? Because what I've seen is mostly people talking about social issues that concern us all.

    From wikipedia
    Social justice is the ability people have to realize their potential in the society where they live.
    "Social justice" is generally used to refer to a set of institutions which will enable people to lead a fulfilling life and be active contributors to their community.
    This is beyond silly.

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