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  1. #901
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post

    But what now, it suits your personal narrative better to say they're covering something up, so you'll throw all that out just to score a point in the argument? Really?
    No the point is that they ARE covering something up. They even said so. But the thing they are covering does so not warrant a police like response of "NO WE DO NUT GIVE OUT INFORMATION REGARDING ANYTHING THAT PERTAINS TO OUR OWN!!!!1111"

    Its not a conspiracy, its just a stupid reaction that for some reason everyone seems to be going with.

    Again, talking about the stupid things are forbidden, you can critisize the actual ban on talking about it all you want, I dont care.

    Thread for talking about communications ban on these kinds of topics, ie. OMG! JOURNALIST R CORRUPTED!!!!1111, is here:

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/foru...elch-The-First
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 26-08-2014 at 06:30 AM.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  2. #902
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Oh come on. You know as well as I do that RPS has a history of deleting entire threads because they think the debate has no merit, or because certain people in the thread were so toxic. We've both complained at length about it. You set up a group to try and do something about it. I don't like it, I still don't think it's necessary. I do get why someone might do it though.
    I can't think of many in truth. Plenty of equally contentious discussions have been allowed to roll on without a jot of interference. Yet suddenly this one gets pulled seemingly without any explanation.

    But what now, it suits your personal narrative better to say they're covering something up, so you'll throw all that out just to score a point in the argument? Really?
    The only way to consider the validity of something is through examination of the information provided and evaluating it yourself. You've already demonstrated on several occasions that in your mind game journalism can do no wrong and you'll throw yourself on the train tracks at any given opportunity if anyone dare bismirch the reputation of [redacted] without a second thought. Personally I'm a tad more sceptical about conflicts of interest arising in what is an ostensibly a pretty small and incestuous community, especially in the US scene. Does that mean I think there's some grand cabal operating behind the scenes? Not at all. But at the same time I'm happy to listen to what people have to say, see what evidence they have to present and weigh up and evaluate accordingly.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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  3. #903
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    Somehow this is all my fault isn't it.

    I did press send on a contentious missive and come back half a day later to find naught but ashes, so I assume so.

    Oh well. Hey look, it's an interesting subject. I'd much rather RPS was handling this stuff, even on the back end/down low, than leaving it to reddit, 4chan, neogaf, twitter or whoever else.

    Comparing the woes of the random internet deleted to the feelings and reputations of friends and aquiantances is a bit of a stretch, I know. But for the sake of it, bulk deletion does rankle so badly because that is a lot of emotional effort down the drain for a lot of people. Censorship, contrary to popular belief, is actually quite easy to live with (if not without occasional testiness) so long as it doesn't make people feel completely worthless, not worth dealing with and unable to find out why.

    Also, as mentioned, there's a lot of real assholes taking this kind of thing as validation for their insane views and that's always going to bug me. It might be naive to think that matters in the scheme of internet BS, but it's true.
    Last edited by Muzman; 26-08-2014 at 08:03 AM.

  4. #904
    Lesser Hivemind Node L_No's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    Plus I'm rather surprised to see a few forum regulars making it out to be something more than it is. though i guess that might well be due to a natural resistance to seeing threads deleted, whether merited or not.
    Well, I didn't think there was much to the entire issue, until someone decided to randomly delete an entire reasonable and civil thread because it's contents hit too close to home. I never agreed with people that called RPS an echo chamber, only interested in it's own "correct" opinions, but I think I'm starting to agree.

    For god's sake RPS, you have one of the best forum communities I've ever experienced, and a fair share of intelligent and interested readers to boot. Treat them like adults, not like children that can be silenced because they say something that's so true you'd rather not want to hear it. I haven't seen anyone here who is blindly screaming that RPS or other games writers are corrupt or untrustworthy, but I have seen people who expect RPS to walk their usual talk. Don't talk about journalistic integrity, proper relations between the industry and journalism and the position of women in the games industry, and silence any reasonable discussion about those topics. Who do you think you are writing for, exactly, if not the people who are willing and able to discuss the content of your articles? As a reader of RPS and regular on these forums, I'm actually offended by these actions, even though I'm not one to get worked up about internet arguments. Get your act together.
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  5. #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardinaldirection View Post
    personally im sick and tired of seeing the word misogyny thrown around like everyone just discovered there was such a word
    I agree that the word 'misogyny' is often overused, and to the broader detriment of language by eliding any distinction between 'sexism' and 'misogyny'.

    However I also think that many cases of seemingly inappropriate usage are in fact not, and that in such instances the term 'misogyny' often gets to the heart of the motivations and emotions behind a particular statement even if a surface-level reading doesn't support that.

    To clarify: words mean more than what they say directly. We are all familiar with this phenomenon. If I use a term like "philology" in general conversation*, then I've just outed myself as an academic, and possibly a wanker. To take a more closely related example, feminism generates its own terms, its own patterns of speech. If I use the word 'privilege' (in a non-ironic fashion) then I am implicitly revealing that I am exposed to, and likely favourably disposed towards, a broad stream of a particular class of progressive thought, over and above anything I might actually have said at that particular juncture.

    Similarly, there are words and phrases that give people away as being members of a broader class of what I shall, for the sake of simplicity, call cunts. Phrases like "she used her sex!!!!", "whore", "beta fags", etc. tell me a lot more about a person than the two or three sentences of their bilge that I actually bothered to read. And in such contexts, being regrettably acquainted with the kinds of discourse that people who use such terms tend to embrace, I have no problem assigning them a label -- misogynist -- that a more neutral observer, assessing the content of the relevant posts in isolation, might feel to be unjustified.

    * I wouldn't -- I had to Google it yesterday.
    Last edited by Lethe; 26-08-2014 at 09:45 AM.

  6. #906
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    In this particular case, as far as i can understand it, there isn't really anything that could need to be covered up.
    Many people would disagree, and the more these topics simply vanish from the web, the more convinced they become that games media want to shine the light anywhere except on themselves, on the stories and pictures of them hanging out with Indi developers, drinking together, passing around extremely casual messages over social media. It all makes it look like games journalists were in way deeper with Indi developers than they ever were with the multi-million dollar publishers.

  7. #907
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    It all makes it look like games journalists were in way deeper with Indi developers than they ever were with the multi-million dollar publishers.
    It would make sense if they were/are (on a personal level), since both indie developers and games journalists are people who are passionate about gaming. There's naturally going to be a lot of overlap, and sometimes people cross over (like Jim Rossignol with Sir You Are Being Hunted). That doesn't prove anything about corruption though, but it does mean you need to be careful.

  8. #908
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    It would make sense if they were/are (on a personal level), since both indie developers and games journalists are people who are passionate about gaming. There's naturally going to be a lot of overlap, and sometimes people cross over (like Jim Rossignol with Sir You Are Being Hunted). That doesn't prove anything about corruption though, but it does mean you need to be careful.
    I think you should always read whatever anyone writes with a grain of salt.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  9. #909
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp

    Preamble

    Members of the Society of Professional Journalists believe that public enlightenment is the forerunner of justice and the foundation of democracy. The duty of the journalist is to further those ends by seeking truth and providing a fair and comprehensive account of events and issues. Conscientious journalists from all media and specialties strive to serve the public with thoroughness and honesty. Professional integrity is the cornerstone of a journalist's credibility. Members of the Society share a dedication to ethical behavior and adopt this code to declare the Society's principles and standards of practice.

    Seek Truth and Report It

    Journalists should be honest, fair and courageous in gathering, reporting and interpreting information.

    Journalists should:

    — Test the accuracy of information from all sources and exercise care to avoid inadvertent error. Deliberate distortion is never permissible.
    — Diligently seek out subjects of news stories to give them the opportunity to respond to allegations of wrongdoing.
    — Identify sources whenever feasible. The public is entitled to as much information as possible on sources' reliability.
    — Always question sources’ motives before promising anonymity. Clarify conditions attached to any promise made in exchange for information. Keep promises.
    — Make certain that headlines, news teases and promotional material, photos, video, audio, graphics, sound bites and quotations do not misrepresent. They should not oversimplify or highlight incidents out of context.
    — Never distort the content of news photos or video. Image enhancement for technical clarity is always permissible. Label montages and photo illustrations.
    — Avoid misleading re-enactments or staged news events. If re-enactment is necessary to tell a story, label it.
    — Avoid undercover or other surreptitious methods of gathering information except when traditional open methods will not yield information vital to the public. Use of such methods should be explained as part of the story
    — Never plagiarize.
    — Tell the story of the diversity and magnitude of the human experience boldly, even when it is unpopular to do so.
    — Examine their own cultural values and avoid imposing those values on others.
    — Avoid stereotyping by race, gender, age, religion, ethnicity, geography, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance or social status.
    — Support the open exchange of views, even views they find repugnant.
    — Give voice to the voiceless; official and unofficial sources of information can be equally valid.
    — Distinguish between advocacy and news reporting. Analysis and commentary should be labeled and not misrepresent fact or context.
    — Distinguish news from advertising and shun hybrids that blur the lines between the two.
    — Recognize a special obligation to ensure that the public's business is conducted in the open and that government records are open to inspection.

    Minimize Harm

    Ethical journalists treat sources, subjects and colleagues as human beings deserving of respect.

    Journalists should:

    — Show compassion for those who may be affected adversely by news coverage. Use special sensitivity when dealing with children and inexperienced sources or subjects.
    — Be sensitive when seeking or using interviews or photographs of those affected by tragedy or grief.
    — Recognize that gathering and reporting information may cause harm or discomfort. Pursuit of the news is not a license for arrogance.
    — Recognize that private people have a greater right to control information about themselves than do public officials and others who seek power, influence or attention. Only an overriding public need can justify intrusion into anyone’s privacy.
    — Show good taste. Avoid pandering to lurid curiosity.
    — Be cautious about identifying juvenile suspects or victims of sex crimes.
    — Be judicious about naming criminal suspects before the formal filing of charges.
    — Balance a criminal suspect’s fair trial rights with the public’s right to be informed.


    Act Independently

    Journalists should be free of obligation to any interest other than the public's right to know.

    Journalists should:

    —Avoid conflicts of interest, real or perceived.
    — Remain free of associations and activities that may compromise integrity or damage credibility.
    — Refuse gifts, favors, fees, free travel and special treatment, and shun secondary employment, political involvement, public office and service in community organizations if they compromise journalistic integrity.
    — Disclose unavoidable conflicts.
    — Be vigilant and courageous about holding those with power accountable.
    — Deny favored treatment to advertisers and special interests and resist their pressure to influence news coverage.
    — Be wary of sources offering information for favors or money; avoid bidding for news.


    Be Accountable

    Journalists are accountable to their readers, listeners, viewers and each other.

    Journalists should:

    — Clarify and explain news coverage and invite dialogue with the public over journalistic conduct.
    — Encourage the public to voice grievances against the news media.
    — Admit mistakes and correct them promptly.
    — Expose unethical practices of journalists and the news media.
    — Abide by the same high standards to which they hold others.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 26-08-2014 at 07:21 PM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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  10. #910
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Game critics, kad, not journalists. Also, could you pick out some bits that you think important then link to the quote or the discussion in other? Just for brevitys sake.

    And again, Id like to point out we are not discussing the "widespread corruption of game critics" but are having a chat about what we think journalism should entail.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  11. #911
    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Game critics, kad, not journalists. Also, could you pick out some bits that you think important then link to the quote or the discussion in other? Just for brevitys sake.

    And again, Id like to point out we are not discussing the "widespread corruption of game critics" but are having a chat about what we think journalism should entail.
    I don't know, Quanta. It doesn't seem like the RPS team has much of a trouble calling themselves journalists when it suits them. [Img Link]

  12. #912
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    I am programmer, but not everything I do is programming, this is not source code.

  13. #913
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Game critics, kad, not journalists. Also, could you pick out some bits that you think important then link to the quote or the discussion in other? Just for brevitys sake.

    And again, Id like to point out we are not discussing the "widespread corruption of game critics" but are having a chat about what we think journalism should entail.
    Well I think if you're going to call yourself a duck, you should act like one (talk the talk, walk the walk) and albeit I agree that in large part a lot of these people are game critics/writers a great many of them do like to call themselves journalists (I imagine it goes across better at dinner parties and the like).
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

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  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    I am programmer, but not everything I do is programming, this is not source code.
    Is your job title programmer?

  15. #915
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    Quote Originally Posted by (int) magicMissile View Post
    Is your job title programmer?
    I don't work for a corporation, so my job title can be whatever I want. CIO. Software Architect. Internal Guru. Computer Whisperer. Git Chaman. HumanComputer Interface. Technologist Maximum. Proxy of the God Computer. Sherif.

    Programming is the thing I do, then talk with customers, design strategies to organize team when we get extra people, plan enhancements on products.

    Now that we know each another, and we have /highfive and /brofist, let me tell you that you are too abrasive in the forum. And you look like have joined it to post about The Topic. You should be doing something about that. Like talking about videogames, or stoping talking about The Topic. Mods can be tolerant just now, but down the route you are following atm, ....usually the end is a ban in a normal forum, anywhere on the internet.

    I lack the subtlety to say this better, so I hope this sound as friendly as I intended.
    Last edited by Tei; 27-08-2014 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Fix: added more subtelity!, moar!

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    I don't work for a corporation, so my job title can be whatever I want. CIO. Software Architect. Internal Guru. Computer Whisperer. Git Chaman. HumanComputer Interface. Technologist Maximum. Proxy of the God Computer. Sherif.
    Pick one.
    I think my title in linkedin is something like Open Source Advocate / Entrepreneur - Owner of Foobar LTD. Or something like taht. I just opened a linkedin profile to send messages to a old friend girl.

    Programming is the thing I do, then talk with customers, design strategies to organize team when we get extra people, plan enhancements on products.
    Which is kind of my point. No one with any sense would describe you as a programmer. You're a software engineer or whatever other term is applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    Now that we know each another, and we have /highfive and /brofist, let me tell you that you are too abrasive in the forum. And you look like have joined it to post about The Topic. You should be doing something about that. Like talking about videogames, or stoping talking about The Topic. Mods can be tolerant just now, but down the route you are following atm, ....usually the end is a ban in a normal forum, anywhere on the internet.

    Usually the type of people that ignore this type of warning are the people that don't care about getting banned. I lack the subtlety to say this better, so I hope this sound as friendly as I intended.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I'd rather play videogames than talk about them.

  17. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Game critics, kad, not journalists. Also, could you pick out some bits that you think important then link to the quote or the discussion in other? Just for brevitys sake.

    And again, Id like to point out we are not discussing the "widespread corruption of game critics" but are having a chat about what we think journalism should entail.
    SPJ deal with news writers not media journos but still, that's not a bad code of ethics, but if we're going to hold games writers to it, do you think the people claiming they are doing so should also be following it? And the YouTube 'journalists' making videos on the topic? And the people with gifs and red lines? Because:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post


    — Show compassion for those who may be affected adversely by news coverage. Use special sensitivity when dealing with children and inexperienced sources or subjects.
    — Recognize that gathering and reporting information may cause harm or discomfort. Pursuit of the news is not a license for arrogance.
    — Recognize that private people have a greater right to control information about themselves than do public officials and others who seek power, influence or attention. Only an overriding public need can justify intrusion into anyone’s privacy.
    — Show good taste. Avoid pandering to lurid curiosity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    You've already demonstrated on several occasions that in your mind game journalism can do no wrong
    It can do wrong. It can make me spend $15 on a indie game I didn't like because the writer only recommended it because he was mates with the creator.

    And y'know what? I'd spend $15 on a shitty indie game I'd hate right now if it'd spare the abuse people have been subjected to.

    Because that's the end game isn't it? That's what 'corruption' in the gaming press ends up at. A few hundred copies of a game sold that wouldn't otherwise have sold. That's what you're all worried about. That's what people are sending rape threats over. That's what people are sending death threats over. That's what people are keeping up a sustained harassment of people they think are corrupt over. It's really not fucking worth it.

    Especially given what games journos get paid. If you count the time they actually spend playing the games they review it's genuinely one of the worst paid jobs in the developed world. I'd wager we'd get better games writers if we paid them more. But most people here, and I'll wager the ones complaining too, don't even pay for their games journalism any more. And so you get £75 for a 500-word review of a game that took 20 hours to play through. And now those people, who won't give you any money so you have to live of pittance from advertising cash, want to start dictating how you spend your private life and who you can be friends with? I dare you to tell me you would not just tell them to fuck off?

    You get what you pay for, and we're paying fuck all (and this is happening in the national press too, as people stop buying newspapers, so 'real' journalists just sit around and regurgitate press releases to attempt to fill the paper).

    You want Reuters level ethics, you gotta pay Reuters level wages. You want a site like that? Start a Kickstarter, raise $500 million, find five games journos you really like and offer them $100 million to work for you for a year. The one caveat being they have to sign up to a Reuters-style ethics agreement. They will bite your hand off for the job and will happily follow whatever ethical guidelines you want. If it matters that much, if it's so important, then pay people to that level.

    But if you're paying nothing, and games journos are on $30,000 a year, barely getting by, just because they love the job... they're going to hang out with whoever the fuck they want. And you can shout and scream about this as much as you like but guess what?

    RPS and Kotaku's ad revenue and page impressions are both up this month thanks to all this. Maybe the writers will get a bonus.

  18. #918
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    I've found myself agreeing with deano during all this ordeal. At his point I think I can officially appoint him as my spokesman in this matter.

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It can do wrong. It can make me spend $15 on a indie game I didn't like because the writer only recommended it because he was mates with the creator.

    And y'know what? I'd spend $15 on a shitty indie game I'd hate right now if it'd spare the abuse people have been subjected to.

    Because that's the end game isn't it? That's what 'corruption' in the gaming press ends up at. A few hundred copies of a game sold that wouldn't otherwise have sold. That's what you're all worried about. That's what people are sending rape threats over. That's what people are sending death threats over. That's what people are keeping up a sustained harassment of people they think are corrupt over. It's really not fucking worth it.

    Especially given what games journos get paid. If you count the time they actually spend playing the games they review it's genuinely one of the worst paid jobs in the developed world. I'd wager we'd get better games writers if we paid them more. But most people here, and I'll wager the ones complaining too, don't even pay for their games journalism any more. And so you get £75 for a 500-word review of a game that took 20 hours to play through. And now those people, who won't give you any money so you have to live of pittance from advertising cash, want to start dictating how you spend your private life and who you can be friends with? I dare you to tell me you would not just tell them to fuck off?

    You get what you pay for, and we're paying fuck all (and this is happening in the national press too, as people stop buying newspapers, so 'real' journalists just sit around and regurgitate press releases to attempt to fill the paper).

    You want Reuters level ethics, you gotta pay Reuters level wages. You want a site like that? Start a Kickstarter, raise $500 million, find five games journos you really like and offer them $100 million to work for you for a year. The one caveat being they have to sign up to a Reuters-style ethics agreement. They will bite your hand off for the job and will happily follow whatever ethical guidelines you want. If it matters that much, if it's so important, then pay people to that level.

    But if you're paying nothing, and games journos are on $30,000 a year, barely getting by, just because they love the job... they're going to hang out with whoever the fuck they want. And you can shout and scream about this as much as you like but guess what?

    RPS and Kotaku's ad revenue and page impressions are both up this month thanks to all this. Maybe the writers will get a bonus.
    Deano, you are well and truly misrepresenting the entire situation. Sadly, any link I post to info (although I have PM'd them to you and you have dismissed them out of hand) will get deleted.

    1. Game journalists are reasonably well paid, if you include the perks they get.
    2. There's a bit of a difference between "Reuters level ethics" and not "literally being so emotionally linked to one of the developers you post about sexual encounters on Twitter level ethics".
    3. $30k a year, barely getting by. mfw they get paid more than the average worker in England and then get to travel all over the world, expenses fully paid.

  20. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by (int) magicMissile View Post
    Deano, you are well and truly misrepresenting the entire situation. Sadly, any link I post to info (although I have PM'd them to you and you have dismissed them out of hand) will get deleted.

    1. Game journalists are reasonably well paid, if you include the perks they get.
    2. There's a bit of a difference between "Reuters level ethics" and not "literally being so emotionally linked to one of the developers you post about sexual encounters on Twitter level ethics".
    3. $30k a year, barely getting by. mfw they get paid more than the average worker in England and then get to travel all over the world, expenses fully paid.
    Dont think you quite jnderstand that this isnt a glamourous job. Sure more than a worker, but they have deadlines, high level of travel, long work hours. Try doing that to workers, it sure as fuck wouldnt fly here in austria.

    On top of that, you need to be able to write. And not just any shit, but write good. And funny too. A worker doesnt need any skills, a journo needs writing, speaking, interviewing AND gaming skills. Thats a whole lot for just 30k. If itd be a university degree theyd be grossly underpaid.

    Ndto top it all off, most of these people havent studied to be journos. Just like montessori teachers havent studied to be teachers, so you will always end up missing the basics, unless youre lucky and that person seems to have a good grasp on the essentials by himself.

    Again, i dont expect them to have integrity. Its entertainment baby. But if I would, i would demand them to have a code of conduct.
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 27-08-2014 at 08:19 AM.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

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