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  1. #381
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Yeah just continue ignoring the point Im trying to make.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  2. #382
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Why can't there just be suspensions first, bans later.
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  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rossignol View Post
    Understood. Although I would say claiming that anyone is more invested in this website that me might be muddling the truth somewhat.

    And I'm happy to answer questions.
    Not invested in the site as a whole, obviously - that'd be daft. Just the forums, which generally have very little input from the writers and very light moderation, so has pretty much been left to its own devices. Which is fine. But then that sort of winds people (me) up the wrong way when threads are just closed with nothing said about it. I think even though this is obviously your forum, the fact that you've had quite a hands-off approach to it changes how people react when you do do something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rossignol View Post
    Nalano: You'd rather I banned more widely than closed threads? I can do that, but it seems way harsher.
    I agree with this too. I don't think someone being banned for a week is in any way a harsh punishment at all. Permanent bans probably need a little more thought. But while the recent threads probably haven't been great examples of it, there have been threads before where a few people got into a heated argument while others carried on having interesting discussions behind that.

    And I appreciate that yes, one could just start up another thread, people generally won't do that as they'll assume if a thread was closed, it was closed for a reason. And unless the people causing trouble had been tacked another way, they'd turn up in the new thread anyway.

  4. #384
    Lesser Hivemind Node Faldrath's Avatar
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    Quanta, to put it in yet another way: what is better for a community?

    - to feel that it can safely discuss anything, because if trolls/hateful people show up to derail a discussion, they'll be dealt with fairly and speedily?

    or

    - to feel that there are some subjects it can't discuss, because if trolls/hateful people show up to derail a discussion, it'll get locked and nothing else will be said about the subject?

    Do you honestly think that the second choice is *better* for a community of smart, decent people?

    (note that I'm not advocating immediate permabans for anyone who violates the rules - permabans should only be handed to repeat offenders)

  5. #385
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    no, I feel that those discussions dont add anything to anyone. I dont want to forbid them, but dont be surprised when they get locked because people enrage pretty quickly.

    and please prove me wrong.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    monochrom & verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    no, I feel that those discussions dont add anything to anyone. I dont want to forbid them, but dont be surprised when they get locked because people enrage pretty quickly.

    and please prove me wrong.
    But that's easy for threads specifically about the outrage about something, and you might have a point with regards to some threads. But the point of things like Tropes vs women is to create discussion. And there is sensible discussion to be had there. And there are games about feminism that people may want to discuss also. You're probably right that the self-reflective stuff of "look at the outrage about this, lets discuss it" aren't often that useful. But there's a broad swathe of stuff beyond that which will also attract the trolls.

  7. #387
    Lesser Hivemind Node Faldrath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    no, I feel that those discussions dont add anything to anyone. I dont want to forbid them, but dont be surprised when they get locked because people enrage pretty quickly.

    and please prove me wrong.
    How am I supposed to "prove" that something you *feel* is wrong? Against your viewpoint, I can only offer mine: I've learned a lot from the WvT thread before it got awfully derailed, I do think that there are useful things that can be said about why there are so few women in gaming forums, etc.

    I guess what's bothering me here is that you seem to think you can impose your "feel" upon the whole community, especially when you say things like "I don't want to forbid them, but..." - which seems to imply that you *could* forbid them if you wanted to. And that makes *me* feel rather uncomfortable.

  8. #388
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But that's easy for threads specifically about the outrage about something, and you might have a point with regards to some threads. But the point of things like Tropes vs women is to create discussion. And there is sensible discussion to be had there. And there are games about feminism that people may want to discuss also. You're probably right that the self-reflective stuff of "look at the outrage about this, lets discuss it" aren't often that useful. But there's a broad swathe of stuff beyond that which will also attract the trolls.
    The problem is partially that it attracts the insanely bigoted trolls, but also that it becomes an "excuse" for VERY assholish behavior, even on the side of the "morally right". So you get a bunch of really offensive stuff plus an excuse to dogpile and harass the crap out of people

    Quote Originally Posted by Faldrath View Post
    How am I supposed to "prove" that something you *feel* is wrong? Against your viewpoint, I can only offer mine: I've learned a lot from the WvT thread before it got awfully derailed, I do think that there are useful things that can be said about why there are so few women in gaming forums, etc.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what Quanta is saying is "I don't see any way this will ever not lead to a shitstorm, but feel free to try again. I hope it won't be a shitstorm, but I am not holding my breath"
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  9. #389
    Lesser Hivemind Node Faldrath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what Quanta is saying is "I don't see any way this will ever not lead to a shitstorm, but feel free to try again. I hope it won't be a shitstorm, but I am not holding my breath"
    Yeah, that's how I read it as well, but how am I supposed to "prove" that wrong? It's not like I can look into the future to find the statistics that say how many threads will/will not become shitstorms. And that seems to be a fairly weak claim to try to limit discussion here anyway: "oh, don't discuss that because it *might* become a shitstorm". It would really be borderline censorship.

  10. #390
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faldrath View Post
    Yeah, that's how I read it as well, but how am I supposed to "prove" that wrong? It's not like I can look into the future to find the statistics that say how many threads will/will not become shitstorms. And that seems to be a fairly weak claim to try to limit discussion here anyway: "oh, don't discuss that because it *might* become a shitstorm". It would really be borderline censorship.
    It got lost in the subsequent bickering due to the baffling need to pick a fight, but

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    However, that being said, you say there is a discussion to be had, please, start a discussion and I promise you, I will watch over it and prune the shit out of it, but you have to let me know which thread.
    Hence. Make a thread, see if it doesn't become a shitstorm.

    And honestly: If a topic is inevitably going to turn into a shitstorm, then it shouldn't be discussed. Because clearly we aren't mature enough to discuss it and are just looking for an excuse to scream and jerk our hate-ons.
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  11. #391
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rossignol View Post
    Nalano: You'd rather I banned more widely than closed threads? I can do that, but it seems way harsher.
    At this point we can't talk about certain subjects because the bigots come out. Would you rather we be able to discuss these subjects without these bigots or would you rather we not discuss these subjects?

    Because right now, without the bans, closing the threads only undermines the discussions, not the bigots.

    I'd like to think that, with folks like John Walker and Cara Ellison writing for RPS, you're attempting to create something that's Smarter Than The Average Blog, but I don't see that translating very well to the forums: The culture here excludes women. You're concerned about harsh punishments but the damage has already been done. Women don't want to post here. They haven't for a long while. How much more could you conceivably hurt the community when half of it doesn't even want to show up?

    I'm an opinionated motherfucker and so are a bunch of other folks here, but I really don't believe it's the aggression but the viewpoints on offer. There's really no being able to rationally discuss this issue with bigots, no matter how cordial their words. You practice a Scorched Earth policy on the blog - and presumably have banned many a poster along with deleting many a post - so why not here? Since we aren't granted the ability to do so ourselves.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  12. #392
    Lesser Hivemind Node Faldrath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    It got lost in the subsequent bickering due to the baffling need to pick a fight, but



    Hence. Make a thread, see if it doesn't become a shitstorm.

    And honestly: If a topic is inevitably going to turn into a shitstorm, then it shouldn't be discussed. Because clearly we aren't mature enough to discuss it and are just looking for an excuse to scream and jerk our hate-ons.
    Hm, apologies, I did indeed miss that part. Still, I disagree about your last statement, because I do believe we can turn this forum into a better place, as I tried to argue in previous threads.

  13. #393
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Yeah I tend to agree. The place needs a community that more accurately reflects what RPS are trying to do, i.e. the PAX article. I think temp banning the people who are terrible (the ones being sexist, racist, homophobic) rather than people swearing or locking threads is probably good. Presumably they'd get the idea and shut up making the forum a better place.

    Or yknow something. These discussions always seem to meta to me. It's like watching the LibDem party conference at the point where they are having a debate about the rules for motions and debates the next day.

  14. #394
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    Heres a list of english words with the word "rape" in it.

    actinotherapeutic
    aerotherapeutic
    antirape
    arapesh
    arapeshe
    aromatherapeutic
    autotherapeutic
    backscraper
    bacteriotherapeutic
    balneotherapeutic
    bedrape
    bedraped
    bescrape
    bibliotherapeutic
    broomrape
    cameraperson
    chemotherapeutic
    chemotherapeutical
    chemotherapeutically
    chemotherapeuticnes
    climatotherapeutic
    corapeake
    crape
    craped
    crapefish
    crapehanger
    crapehanging
    crapelike
    crapette
    dietotherapeutic
    drape
    drapeabilitie
    drapeability
    drapeable
    draped
    draper
    draperes
    draperie
    draperied
    drapery
    draperying
    drapet
    drapetomania
    drapey
    electrotherapeutic
    electrotherapeutical
    electrotherapeutist
    eutrapelia
    eutrapelie
    eutrapely
    extrapelvic
    extraperineal
    extraperiodic
    extraperiosteal
    extraperitoneal
    footscraper
    frape
    gerontotherapeutic
    grape
    graped
    grapeflower
    grapefruit
    grapeful
    grapeland
    grapeles
    grapeless
    grapelet
    grapelike
    grapeline
    grapenut
    graperie
    graperoot
    grapery
    grapeseed
    grapeshot
    grapeskin
    grapestalk
    grapestone
    grapetree
    grapeview
    grapeville
    grapevine
    grapewise
    grapewort
    grapey
    handscrape
    hemotherapeutic
    hollygrape
    hydrotherapeutic
    hydrotherapeutical
    hydrotherapeutically
    hydrotherapeutician
    immunotherapeutic
    indrape
    infraperipherial
    intrapelvic
    intrapericardiac
    intrapericardial
    intraperineal
    intraperiosteal
    intraperitoneal
    intraperitoneally
    intrapersonal
    intrapersonally
    intrapetiolar
    jumpscrape
    linendraper
    mechanotherapeutic
    metallotherapeutic
    mirapex
    mirapexe
    neurotherapeutic
    nontherapeutic
    nontherapeutical
    nontherapeutically
    organotherapeutic
    overdrape
    overdrapery
    parapegm
    parapegma
    parapegmata
    parapente
    parapenting
    paraperiodic
    parapet
    parapetalou
    parapeted
    parapetles
    phototherapeutic
    phthisiotherapeutic
    physicotherapeutic
    physiotherapeutic
    physiotherapeutical
    pneumatotherapeutic
    pneumotherapeutic
    posttrapezoid
    psychotherapeutic
    psychotherapeutical
    psychotherapeutically
    psychotherapeutist
    radiotherapeutic
    radiotherapeutist
    rape
    rapeable
    raped
    rapeful
    rapelje
    rapely
    rapeoil
    raper
    rapeseed
    rapeye
    redrape
    sarape
    sarcotherapeutic
    satrapes
    scrape
    scrapeage
    scraped
    scrapegood
    scrapegut
    scrapepennie
    scrapepenny
    scraper
    scraperboard
    serape
    serapea
    serapeum
    serotherapeutic
    shoescraper
    shrape
    skyscrape
    skyscraper
    spondylotherapeutic
    subtherapeutic
    subtrapezoid
    subtrapezoidal
    suprapedal
    terrapene
    tetrapetalou
    therapeuse
    therapeusi
    therapeusis
    therapeutae
    therapeutic
    therapeutical
    therapeutically
    therapeutics
    therapeutism
    therapeutist
    thermotherapeutic
    trape
    traped
    trapese
    trapesed
    trapesing
    trapezate
    trapeze
    trapezed
    trapezia
    trapezial
    trapezian
    trapeziform
    trapezii
    trapezing
    trapeziometacarpal
    trapezist
    trapeziu
    trapezium
    trapezius
    trapeziuse
    trapezohedra
    trapezohedral
    trapezohedron
    trapezoid
    trapezoidal
    trapezoidiform
    trapezophora
    trapezophoron
    trapezophozophora
    ultraperfect
    ultrapersuasive
    undrape
    undraped
    undraperied
    unraped
    unscraped
    untherapeutic
    untherapeutical
    untherapeutically
    vibrotherapeutic
    zarape
    zomotherapeutic

    This is my way to have a pasive-agresive defense of the freedom of expresion that RPS is attacking.

    Go take some of these words, and make a poem, or whatever, maybe a therapeutical joke.
    Last edited by Tei; 19-09-2013 at 06:57 PM.

  15. #395
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    As a lurker, I have lost a lot of interest in reading the RPS comments and forums, and possibly participating with other RPS members due to people I can only describe as scum polluting the place. If all you do is lock threads, you are basically defending those people - discussions THEY don't like get shut down. I would far rather see these people be banned. If someone wants to insist that women don't actually play video games, that racial jokes are OK, that rape survivors "just need to get over it", etc, I would like to see that this website just outright rejects them, and forces them to go elsewhere - leaving RPS a place where actual, non-scum people can congregate.

  16. #396
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Can you "lurkers" please start to read up before posting.

    Also, Tei, there is no freedom of expression here. Wasnt that clear? And I dont mean swearwords and talking shit.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    monochrom & verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Can you "lurkers" please start to read up before posting.

    Also, Tei, there is no freedom of expression here. Wasnt that clear? And I dont mean swearwords and talking shit.
    I know that. I have no problem if any of my post get deleted in RPS.

    Is not my freedom of expression I am defending here, but Penny Arcade one, or any other humorist/cartonist.

    Last edited by Tei; 19-09-2013 at 07:39 PM.

  18. #398
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Its not PAs freedom of expression thats being critisized. Its their very vocal asshattery.

    But this isnt really the thread to talk about that PA stuff.

    EDIT: to be clear, my opinion on the matter is that, aside from the transgendered commentary, theyre trying to make jokes that upset people (which is fine) but then apologise (which is fine) and then continue doing it anyway (which negates the apology and makes them seem like arsehats)
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 19-09-2013 at 07:37 PM.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    monochrom & verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  19. #399
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    I like Teamliquid.net's use of bans and temp bans. Temp bans are used swiftly for non excellence. Used for off topic. If the off topic discussion gets out of hand, a warning is issued that appears at the top of the thread on every page noting any further off topic discussion will result in bans. They will harshly enforce sub forum rules also, making it clear the rules to post in them.

    People are warned. Multiple warnings and temps bans lead to perma bans. Blanant non excellence leads to a eas

    They also have a Closed Thread forum, so all closed threads can be viewed. Not all but some closed threads last post will be by a moderator saying why it was closed.

    Moderators are made clear who they are by an icon.

    Automated Ban list thread in the Closed Thread forum. Each post shows who and by whom was banned. Time of account creation and how many posts by the user (points out obvious troll/spammers throw away accounts) along with the Mod's reasoning for the ban


    Being a bigger site they have a lot more to weed through. But even for smaller forums I think a few of these could be used well. There is no one best solution and moderators are people also and risk at non excellence (bad bans, abuse of power) but a few changes could be made so the trolls and non excellence do not get out of control and a thread can resume its actual discussion.

  20. #400
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karrius View Post
    As a lurker, I have lost a lot of interest in reading the RPS comments and forums, and possibly participating with other RPS members due to people I can only describe as scum polluting the place. If all you do is lock threads, you are basically defending those people - discussions THEY don't like get shut down. I would far rather see these people be banned. If someone wants to insist that women don't actually play video games, that racial jokes are OK, that rape survivors "just need to get over it", etc, I would like to see that this website just outright rejects them, and forces them to go elsewhere - leaving RPS a place where actual, non-scum people can congregate.
    IMHO, this hits the nail on the head. If we are scared of trolls, then they already won.
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