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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Just wait till you hear about Apple's new female hygeine accessory
    They should call it iPad. No, wait...

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  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Worst tech video... um... in the last 4 weeks.

    But apart from that, this is a very interesting device.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookeeper View Post
    Yikes. Sounds like a marketers wet dream come to life. ("It's not a station wagon... it's an ULTRACAR.")


    Unless I'm in the market for something I don't usually follow hardware very closely. Sometimes I amaze myself at how much slips by me.
    When the netbook craze was dying out due to the iPad they had to come with something else. And also to compete against the Macbook Air.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    When the netbook craze was dying out due to the iPad they had to come with something else. And also to compete against the Macbook Air.
    Pretty interesting that they're making a device to compete with both. I like that it solves the problem of having either a tablet or a laptop with you and wishing you had brought the other. It looks a little big and heavy and there's no way I'll buy the first generation product but I have high hopes for this thing.

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    But apart from that, this is a very interesting device.
    Could be interesting. Certainly looks like it's going to be a lot more functional than the Ipad, and I like the inclusion of the thin keyboard as standard, and the fact that it fully supports stylus input.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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    Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Could be interesting. Certainly looks like it's going to be a lot more functional than the Ipad, and I like the inclusion of the thin keyboard as standard, and the fact that it fully supports stylus input.
    Stylus, touch, and keyboard are a powerful combination. Presumably a USB or bluetooth mouse ought to be an option as well.

    My first thought when I saw the keyboard was how much easier it would be to play games on DOSbox since it has function keys, arrow keys, etc. A portable DOS arcade would seriously float my boat.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbriandamage View Post
    Stylus, touch, and keyboard are a powerful combination. Presumably a USB or bluetooth mouse ought to be an option as well.
    I'm sure it will support a USB mouse as well.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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    Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I'm sure it will support a USB mouse as well.
    Dunno about the RT version but the "Pro" (read: x86 BUT NAMES ARE FUN HEH HEH) version definitely would, given that it's a full Win8 system.

    That said typing on that thing looks like it'd be pretty bad. Better than typing on the tablet itself, but not up to even the crappiest of chiclet keyboards.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    It's funny how the reaction on the internets has basically validated Microsoft's decision to venture into hardware already.

    Dozens of WinRT/Win8 tablets/hybrids announced at Computex et al. = *crickets*
    Microsoft announces same thing = internets explodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That said typing on that thing looks like it'd be pretty bad. Better than typing on the tablet itself, but not up to even the crappiest of chiclet keyboards.
    Yeah. And given that you have to combine it with a kickstand it doesn't even seem notably more convenient compared to other solutions like Asus' keyboard dock which holds the tablet upright itself and also adds more battery (and in future incarnations possibly ports and even GPU horsepower) too.

    Not much to see here I think. Personally I want to see what Nokia brings to the table -- a 7" Lumia style tablet would be very interesting. Alternatively a Windows Phone 8/Windows RT version of the Samsung Galaxy Note II would be nice...
    Last edited by Rii; 20-06-2012 at 05:19 AM.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Dozens of WinRT/Win8 tablets/hybrids announced at Computex et al. = *crickets*
    Microsoft announces same thing = internets explodes.
    The thing is though that a lot of the other offerings are still uncomfortably close to the old style tablet computers with an attached bulky keyboard. By comparison the Surface keyboard is designed to unobtrusively fold over the tablet; it doesn't add much in the way of bulk at all. It's not as good as the other tablet keyboards but it's a lot thinner.

    Microsoft have approached it from a touch-centric perspective where the keyboard is a secondary element. Everybody else is looking at it as if the keyboard is a must have addition which acts as a dock in many cases. They're missing the point. Plus the Surface has a fairly nice design, everything else looks... well, like a netbook to be honest. And in a plastic-y/pointless metal kind of way.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The thing is though that a lot of the other offerings are still uncomfortably close to the old style tablet computers with an attached bulky keyboard. By comparison the Surface keyboard is designed to unobtrusively fold over the tablet; it doesn't add much in the way of bulk at all. It's not as good as the other tablet keyboards but it's a lot thinner.
    As I see it if you don't need to type much then the tablet itself is fine to type on. And if you do then you'll want either a proper keyboard in the form of a more traditional dock or to buy a hybrid/ultrabook platform instead. Microsoft's solution is an interesting compromise which may suit some, but I'm not sure why so many folks are almost cumming over it.

    Microsoft have approached it from a touch-centric perspective where the keyboard is a secondary element. Everybody else is looking at it as if the keyboard is a must have addition which acts as a dock in many cases.
    I honestly don't know where you're getting this impression from. Frankly, if anything else it seems to be the other way around, what with so much emphasis here being on the keyboard.

    Plus the Surface has a fairly nice design, everything else looks... well, like a netbook to be honest. And in a plastic-y/pointless metal kind of way.
    Yeah, it looks good. Maybe, matters of trade-off/taste like docks/keyboards/etc. aside, they'll even be the best tablets in their respective classes on release. But that's (1) far from a given and (2) a matter of 1-percenters. I don't dismiss the importance of such 1-percenters -- such things are why Asus is out ahead on the Ultrabook front from my perspective -- but they don't explain such wild adulation and chatter re: this tablet compared to all the others that've been announced, and those still to come.
    Last edited by Rii; 20-06-2012 at 06:21 AM.

  13. #33
    Network Hub Space Indaver's Avatar
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    It's a sexy version of an Asus Transformer, with a full version of Windows. If the price is right, I'm there. Big 'if' though.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    As I see it if you don't need to type much then the tablet itself is fine to type on. And if you do then you'll want either a proper keyboard in the form of a more traditional dock or to buy a hybrid/ultrabook platform instead. Microsoft's solution is an interesting compromise which may suit some, but I'm not sure why so many folks are almost cumming over it.
    That's my point actually - the keyboard is an adjunct to the tablet, it's not treated as an integral part of it. It's a flimsy flip thing which works better than tapping on the tablet. I'm not really criticising it in saying that; it clearly isn't going to have the tactile feedback of typing on a rubber dome keyboard, but it's better than tapping on the tablet itself. The approach of Asus and similar groups is to provide that higher quality keyboard which is great, but it's unnecessary and adds to the bulk. The iPad for example is designed without a keyboard. The Asus and similar presentations push the keyboard as an integral part of the thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    I honestly don't know where you're getting this impression from. Frankly, if anything else it seems to be the other way around, what with so much emphasis here being on the keyboard.
    If the emphasis is on the keyboard, why is it such a thin membrane one? I think you misread what I said - the general public are focusing on the Surface because it includes a keyboard, as does everybody else. But the point here is that Microsoft have put in a very thin keyboard which just folds over the device. Everybody else is focusing on larger keyboards which often double up as a dock. More pleasant to type on but they add more bulk (and Win8 tabs are already pretty bulky, particularly the x86 ones compared with the iPad for instance) and look like the old tablet concept where a screen folded around a keyboard.

    Everybody else has apparently missed the point - if people want a full blown keyboard they'll put it in a dock on a desktop. The kind of keyboard Microsoft are pushing is perfect - it's better than typing on a tablet but it's incredibly portable and unobtrusive. People are excited about the Surface because Asus and friends seem to lack direction when it comes to Win8; they're trying some hybrid netbook tablet thing which doesn't work. Microsoft clearly understand that a tablet is either a highly portable device without extra crap attached, or it's in a dock with extra crap attached. The other tablets look... well, dated like they just took a netbook, broke the hinge (or sometimes not even that), and added a touch screen.

  15. #35
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    Well I have personally completely dismissed the regular Surface model, being ARM it doesn't leverage Microsoft's advantages and your essentially better of with an Android tablet or an iPad.
    Though I do not see the Pro being great either, all I see is sever heating issues and non-existent battery life. Microsoft really needs to start convincing their OEMs if they want this to be a success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii
    Dozens of WinRT/Win8 tablets/hybrids announced at Computex et al. = *crickets*
    Microsoft announces same thing = internets explodes.
    I think a lot of it simply comes out of it being Microsoft making it, we all expect Asus to be churning these things out, but the fact Microsoft has had to do it apparently makes it interesting.

    I guess people have forgotten the last time Microsoft tried to make their own hardware, Zune anyone?

    More interested by the Vizio laptops to be honest, they do look rather nice.
    Last edited by byteCrunch; 20-06-2012 at 09:52 AM.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That's my point actually - the keyboard is an adjunct to the tablet, it's not treated as an integral part of it. It's a flimsy flip thing which works better than tapping on the tablet. I'm not really criticising it in saying that; it clearly isn't going to have the tactile feedback of typing on a rubber dome keyboard, but it's better than tapping on the tablet itself.
    Sure, but also more inconvenient ... you have to flip it out on a desk and set the kickstand up. If you're going to do that, why not use a real keyboard? Hell, looking at the amount of room the whole assembly takes up (cbf finding an image to post) my first thought was actually "why not buy a laptop if you're gonna do that?"

    Personally I'll take a combination of maximum convenience (tapping on the tab) and maximum capability (real keyboard + other features) over the combination of maximum convenience and moderately less convenience for a moderately-better-but-still-not-very-good capability that Microsoft's solution offers. I can understand that others might have different priorities that lead them to different conclusions, but hailing this as a revolution ... not so much.

    The iPad for example is designed without a keyboard. The Asus and similar presentations push the keyboard as an integral part of the thing.
    I don't get the impression at all. The keyboard is an extension of the hardware if you need it -- and if you do need it, not only will it provide a half-reasonable typing experience, but it can also (potentially) offer additional features such as more runtime, ports, or GPU horsepower for playing games. If you don't see yourself needing to type much, then don't buy it ... at least with Asus' Transformer line the tablet and dock are sold separately.

    I think it's understandable -- almost critical, even -- for Windows RT/8 tabs to offer such capabilities, as the flexibility of Windows 8 is one of the things that sets it apart from iOS and, to a lesser extent, Android, in the marketplace. But you need to offer the hardware features to take advantage of that flexibility.

    and Win8 tabs are already pretty bulky, particularly the x86 ones compared with the iPad for instance) and look like the old tablet concept where a screen folded around a keyboard.
    I don't think that ARM or Atom-based tabs are any bulkier than their iOS/Android equivalents?

    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    Well I have personally completely dismissed the regular Surface model, being ARM it doesn't leverage Microsoft's advantages and your essentially better of with an Android tablet or an iPad.
    Well the main advantage of WindowsRT to my eyes is that it doesn't look like it came out of 1996 like iOS/Android do. The other advantage for RT (over Windows 8 too) is that it ships with Office 15. I could see myself going in for a small Windows ARM-based tablet/phablet if the price/design/feature combination is right. C'mon Nokia.

    Though I do not see the Pro being great either, all I see is sever heating issues and non-existent battery life.
    If the x86 tab is Ivy Bridge-based it'll need a fan, yeah, like the Acer. In fact I think that'll be the case forever and ever and thus that the reign of 'full x86' in a simple tablet (as opposed to a tabtop hybrid, say) will be quite short-lived: until the new Atom architecture gets off the ground next year. Going forward Atom is meant to handle 1-10W and the Core architectures from 10W-100W.

    More interested by the Vizio laptops to be honest, they do look rather nice.
    Yeah they do look good. Alas I doubt they'll come down this part of the planet.

    In the trad ultrabook arena Asus' UX32VD (upspecced to 1080p IPS) seems closest to my needs, at least once it gets refreshed with Windows 8 and a touchscreen. I was initially pretty sceptical about the value of such a low-end GPU as the Geforce 620M when compared to HD 4000, but in reading reviews of ULV IVB-based Ultrabooks it seems that gaming performance is actually thermally limited, i.e. the IGP and and CPU end up limiting each other, with neither being able to stretch to full clocks in real gaming circumstances (as opposed to theoretical tests stressing only CPU or IGP/GPU individually) The UX32, being slightly thicker and with separate locations (and fans) for CPU and GPU should therefore give each more headroom with thus a surprisingly large improvements in gaming performance. I saw benchmarks reinforcing this somewhere a couple days ago but can't seem to find them now. =/
    Last edited by Rii; 20-06-2012 at 11:06 AM.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    I guess people have forgotten the last time Microsoft tried to make their own hardware, Zune anyone?
    Nobody's forgotten. Xbox 360 anyone? Microsoft essentially broke up Nintendo and Sony's two-way battle for the console market. The Zune was a failure, but the 360 certainly isn't. Part of the issue with Zune is that it's going up against an ecosystem that Apple established with iTunes. Windows x86 tabs effectively own the majority of the app ecosystem out there and Apple is the poor app market. The situation changes with ARM devices since it's going up against the walled-garden iPad sector, but in the x86 sector Microsoft could easily win. And even if their own hardware design doesn't take off, they'll still be powering all the other tablets out there, so they can't lose unless Win8 as a platform does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Sure, but also more inconvenient ... you have to flip it out on a desk and set the kickstand up. If you're going to do that, why not use a real keyboard? Hell, looking at the amount of room the whole assembly takes up (cbf finding an image to post) my first thought was actually "why not buy a laptop if you're gonna do that?"
    That applies to all of the designs though... except this flip design is less obtrusive and less bulky than the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    but it can also (potentially) offer additional features such as more runtime, ports, or GPU horsepower for playing games.
    It stops being as portable though, and effectively turns it into a dock... and a dock isn't convenient to carry everywhere, so it's not worth making it integral to the device's design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    I think it's understandable -- almost critical, even -- for Windows RT/8 tabs to offer such capabilities, as the flexibility of Windows 8 is one of the things that sets it apart from iOS and, to a lesser extent, Android, in the marketplace. But you need to offer the hardware features to take advantage of that flexibility.
    Which this does, but it's doing a better job than the Asus or other versions. Their keyboard thing doubling as a cover is effectively like those terrible iPad flip covers except it actually has a purpose. The Asus/Acer etc designs are somewhat backwards in that they're basically netbooks without hinges. Most people are taking notice of the thin membrane keyboard because it's extremely portable and just sits there as a cover, as opposed to the other designs which seem a little behind the times by comparison.

    Also why are you getting so touchy about Win8 and other tablet manufacturers? Every thread about Win8 and you jump in on a crusade. It's like you're afraid of the criticism or something.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Nobody's forgotten. Xbox 360 anyone? Microsoft essentially broke up Nintendo and Sony's two-way battle for the console market. The Zune was a failure, but the 360 certainly isn't. Part of the issue with Zune is that it's going up against an ecosystem that Apple established with iTunes. Windows x86 tabs effectively own the majority of the app ecosystem out there and Apple is the poor app market. The situation changes with ARM devices since it's going up against the walled-garden iPad sector, but in the x86 sector Microsoft could easily win. And even if their own hardware design doesn't take off, they'll still be powering all the other tablets out there, so they can't lose unless Win8 as a platform does.
    The 360 isn't exactly a good point of comparison to the PC/laptop/tablet market, and it took Microsoft two attempts to break into the console market, the original Xbox was hardly a massive success, the 360 took off mostly because it was first, and it has hardly taken a ran away with its advantage, the 360 is only just out selling the PS3, and the Wii trounces all in terms of sales figures. Whilst the Zune is actually a somewhat relevant device to this area of the market.

    The iPad is now synonymous with the word tablet, and currently has a massive slice of the market, iPad is to tablets what Windows is to desktops.
    Microsoft only has one advantage and that is leveraging x86 and it's current software library, but as it seems Microsoft is having a hard time convincing its OEMs to produce tablets, that's the only reason the Surface devices exist (which aren't going to see a second gen they are one off).

    That combined with x86 tablets really aren't in a position to compete with ARM-based tablets at the moment on things such as price, battery life etc. Until x86 tablets can stand toe-to-toe with ARM tablets (outside of the high-end market), ARM tablets are going to continue to dominate, and the advantage x86 offers to Microsoft is meaningless.
    Last edited by byteCrunch; 21-06-2012 at 10:59 AM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The Asus/Acer etc designs are somewhat backwards in that they're basically netbooks without hinges.
    Except Asus' tabs do have hinges.

    Also, on the whole ARM vs. x86 argument, Intel's Medfield is surprisingly battery efficient.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Wasn't Zune a very good device that failed because it was never launched outside the US?

    As for Surface's battery life, 10 days ago ACER revealed a tablet powered by an i5 Ivy Bridge wih over 8 hours of battery life.

    Lastly, the Surface doesn't seem to exist right now. All devices shown were prototypes, none had working keyboards etc.
    I suppose the announcement was rushed because Google is expected to reveal its own tablet a week from now. Rumour is it's already being shipped to retailers.

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