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  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Certainly the films a good talking point, but I'm not convinced even a directors cut can save it given the bone headed activities of the scientists throughout.
    I quite agree; you can't exactly save bad writing. But at the same time, I've yet to see one of Ridley's cuts that I didn't think was an improvement. I'm sure some of the mysteries and plot holes would be cemented in.
    Last edited by sabrage; 22-06-2012 at 02:32 AM.

  2. #82
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bobtree's Avatar
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    and even the Wikipedia article you vaguely cite disagrees with you
    The Wikipedia article where every single survey shows a non-zero percentage of religious belief among scientists? You seem to have a persistent reading comprehension problem. This is an ugly trend.

    because asking a person who makes a bold statement that seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom regarding a material fact to merely validate their claim with some form of supporting data is indeed the ultimate forum war crime.
    Oh the hypocrisy. Good grief.

    You are perfectly welcome to continue being wrong forever instead of doing some very basic independent investigation. A fact is still true if one is ignorant of it. I will continue to say informative things without bowing to anyone's self-aggrandizing demands.

    Maybe if you did I'd reconsider my skepticism
    Maybe if you asked nicely or expressed genuine interest or curiosity someone would consider your request. Possibly. Perhaps. Maybe not. Surprise us.

    I can't exactly say I'm sold on your stance
    I can't exactly say whether you understand what my stance is, since you have misinterpreted it repeatedly.

  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneinthemembrane View Post
    Well that's not what you did, and not what you're doing now, but I'm magnanimous enough to let that go.
    Except there's a clear differential between being sceptical as to a presentation regarding the nature of the future (which is myriad in its possibilities) Vs stating what one believes to be a material fact regarding the present day. Feel free to wrangle on that some more though.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    I quite agree; you can't exactly save bad writing. But at the same time, I've yet to see one of Ridley's cuts that I didn't think was an improvement. I'm sure some of the mysteries and plot holes would be cemented in.
    True enough, though I can't help but feel that in that case the cinema audience is being kind of short changed. As regards the storyline I think one of the scientists in the forbes article summed it up nicely: -

    Where are the advisors to the movie? If you’re going to do a movie, do it right.
    It's a real back of the fag packet plot and you do have to wonder why the writers didn't seemingly consult with any scientists regarding a first contact situation. There was a much richer movie to make if they did I feel.

    @Bob

    Again learn to take a forum whipping like a man. You were asked several times to cite a source to back up your statement regarding an outright majority of scientists being religious (not some) and you failed to deliver. Claiming that you haven't because I wasn't polite enough in asking seems like a pretty feeble and desperate excuse.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 22-06-2012 at 09:57 AM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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  4. #84
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bobtree's Avatar
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    Not surprised. It's a whipping now is it? To steadfastly apply your logical fallacies to my statements? Repetition is another fallacy by the way. Shouldn't a proper whipping at least sting a little? Oh well.

    @Rii: It's a mistake to conflate faith and trust. Faith is belief without evidence. Trust is necessary delegation that must be earned and without which complex societies cannot function. It is evident by their success that trust is not completely unfounded.

    @westyfield: Here we go!

    I do have one last set of burning questions about Prometheus' backstory, and I don't think there are real answers, but let's try.

    Why did the someone leave maps to LV-223? What was their intention? What was humanity supposed to find there?

    For starters, there's no proof of who left the maps, despite Engineers being at the destination. Large figures in the pictograms could suggest perspective, Engineer physiques, excited native humans, or anything really. There's no indication of any other written reference to the maps, so they can't have been very important to the recipients, and they left them in the hands of relative primitives, and also left quite a few of them. That's a bit careless unless they're absolutely certain that nobody meaner might come along, find the star maps, and come knocking, so they probably think they're alone out there.

    They left maps and not a message, so it's not really an invitation or instruction, and it's not a given that someone would eventually go there, so maybe they just wanted us to observe from afar and appreciate the Engineer's terraforming capability. That's much too tame of course, very indirect and wasteful, particularly if it's a friendly gesture like that. The terraforming might also have finished long before anyone read the maps and took a good look.

    The terraforming is incomplete when the ship Prometheus arrives, and an incident interrupted the Engineers previously, so it is unknown what should have been waiting for us. They're very sloppy, or overconfident, to have left a map to an unfinished job site, or else they expected visitors to come much much later, or maybe the interruption was a big surprise, or both. They can't have been using such dangerous biotech without expecting something might go wrong, or else their emergency standby cleanup plan also has a very very long timeline, or was similarly interrupted. They could have abandoned it to try again elsewhere, and planned to return to earth to replace the maps, saying "hey, forget that guy we left in coldsleep and the extra ships and black goo, they're all expendable, and nobody will find them" but I doubt it. Terraforming and super long term planning and handling extremely dangerous materials are all terribly expensive propositions.

    It's been speculated elsewhere that the opening scene of an Engineer committing suicide may have been an attack on LV-223 that resulted in the incident that Prometheus' crew later partially witnesses. If he's an allegorical Promethean figure, stealing fire from the gods as a gift to humanity, that vaguely fits. It requires LV-223 and the maps to be part of a thwarted hostile plan, but why leave maps with ill intent? It's trivial for a spacefaring race with terraforming and uber-biotech to kill us all or ruin the Earth, so I'm not convinced it was some kind of fancy trap, and they could have taken humans there anytime instead of leaving maps.

    As previously discussed, I don't buy whatsoever that the opening scene is the genesis of life on Earth. The Engineers are perfectly 100% DNA matched modern humans, and not even a recent relative or relation. If we run with the theory that they were Earth humans enslaved by some other aliens, things get more interesting. It allows that Engineers are frequently sampled from humanity during repeat visits to Earth, explaining the lack of genetic drift. Clearly they have physiological differences, but those may be caused by means other than DNA. It's likely they do not have the full knowledge or technologies of their abductors because nobody smart enough for space travel would subjugate a species and then give away all their advantages. It fits with there being another completely different kind of spaceship (the saucer in the opening), and a Xeno mural in the LV-223 installation (false gods they must submit to).

    LV-223 could have been intended as a means to help prepare us to deal with the Xenomorphs, or for us to help the Engineers fight back. If so the mural is weird, but not impossible, since it could be a standard installation element or part of the alien technology, or a reminder of their enemy.

    If you want to place the opening on Earth, but more recently, the Engineer could be defying his gods and sacrificing himself to boost the IQ of humanity, kicking off the modern era, for which they then trash LV-223. The Xenos don't have to deal with us directly in that case, because whomever shows up at LV-223 is screwed, and then they left the maps to sabotage us and keep the Engineers down. It fits better than the Engineers leaving us maps to a trap, but the opening really is just too ambiguous, and I'm not sure it matters much what the suicider did. I've tried to stay away from too many goo theories, and this one not particularly good either. The goo is entirely too under-constrained.

    The one thing about the Engineers that really stands out is that whatever they were planning with the maps and LV-223 took 10's of thousands of years of preparation. The woken Engineer comes out ready to fight, not groggy or sick, so 2000 in coldsleep is like a catnap to them. We don't know what motivated his actions, despite some new spoilers about what David said (hint: sadly boring and obvious). Maybe he wanted to escape, change course, dump his cargo into a star, and come warn the Earth. Without more context, his behavior is not understandable.

    My best guess is that we have something they don't in faster than light travel. Prometheus and the series attempt no explanation at all for why its possible, or why FTL communication is not, but it fits perfectly with their great coldsleep tech, and spacefaring humans blowing away their ultra-long timelines. The Engineer ships (and the saucer) are never shown as having FTL, but Prometheus does. If the Engineers were incredibly patient, and very lucky, it just might make sense that they were waiting for humanity to show up with a weapon the Xenos didn't have. I'm not sure if the Engineers are shown with any conventional weapons at all actually. FTL anything makes one great weapon.

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobtroll View Post
    It's a whipping now is it?
    When your repeated excuses for why you simply can't cite something to support your claim consists of a mixture of personal laziness, role reversal, moronic demands that I somehow prove the future and you being butt hurt I think forum whipping is a fairly appropriate term. Now would be a good time to redeem yourself and actually cite something of worth, but that would likely be expecting too much I fear. Now I'm just in it to see what your next shameless party trick is as to why you can't deliver the goods because it simply amuses me.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 22-06-2012 at 08:57 PM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

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    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me


    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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