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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Hmm. That's a tricky one, because dreams are rather broad-reaching. I'm not much for sims, but I like sandboxes.

    I guess I'd want something set in either a modern or future-esque world with a BPRD/Dresden style twist. Noir-like mysteries, monsters go bump, magic hangs in the corners, and dark gods await summoning. I think leaning more towards Dresden-y stuff would be my preference as I would really love to see a good magic system at work in an open world environment. How "known" magic is to the populace and whether or not the game uses the future version of the "it's just like our world, except somehow no-one exactly noticed magic properly" conceit I'm not sure. It could work either way. I'm leaning towards yes, because as odd as it can seem from a gods-eye-view, it's a lot of fun down on the ground, in the middle of a plot arc.

    What I'd like in particular is a magic system that captures what that of the Dresden RPG and indeed Magicka did--how easily one can call down too much power and screw up. I want a magic system that surprises, that has negative consequences related to BEING a spell-caster as well as the actual casting of spells (soulgazing and hexing of electronics being the big ones from Dresden, but we could make new ones or work out something other than hexing if we want wizards to be able to use space travel). I want to be able to play it safe for some reasonably fun effects, and then push my luck to try a weird combination of things or draw in more power than I can normally handle.

    I like the one, big, detailed city approach. A story that takes place over time, AC2 style would be really cool--not necessarily that extended, but enough that the player gets to see the weather change and allow for some neat environmental touches--a building undergoing construction, places open and close, damage caused by the player or other entities gets cleaned up (at least a bit). Crowds would react sensibly to hell raising. Too much mucking about would make people start recognizing you as a criminal or troublemaker; changing clothes or otherwise changing appearance would be an important part of remaining incognito when you get into dangerous turf or become notorious, and getting into trouble with law enforcement would possibly result in arrest rather than death or a trip to the hospital--unless you decide to force that sort of thing (of course, that would mean there'd have to be in-fiction ways you're character could get out of an arrest, possibly tied to a bigger conspiracy/noir plot at work or that arrest is just a fancier AI at work before your Game Over screen).

    I'm not sure if I'd want it to be first or third person. Either way I'd want to make use of some of the great movement systems we've seen in games. Characters that can leap from building to building, run like Faith or Ezio ... I want to see some of these cool movement systems integrated and played against each other. There'd be flying cars to play with, which could only make it more awesome. This is probably the most important part for me; a game with a good method for getting around can really draw me in. I'll just wander around aimlessly, set my own goals, and have a lot of fun racing about. Spiderman 2 seems to be a crowd favorite for this sort of thing.



    Failing all of that, taking the general design principles and movement principles of Mirror's Edge into an open-world, sandbox context would be amazing.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  2. #42
    Network Hub roryok's Avatar
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    My ideal sandbox would be a post-apocalyptic earth, set a few months after a zombie apocalypse. You would make trips into urban areas to scavenge what you could, dodge zombies and battle other survivors. You could repair vehicles and drive them around.

    Basically, Day Z covered about 90% of what I'd like to see, although I've yet to play it as I don't have Arma 2 and I think its probably over-capacity at the mo.

    The difference between Day Z and what I want, is that you would also encounter towns and settlements full of NPCs. You might choose to join one of these communities and go on missions for supplies to local places. Other players could join the same settlement and help out, or defend it from zombie herds or from rival gangs.

    Or, you could be a loner, wandering the wastes and salvaging valuables. Occasionally you might visit settlements to trade what you've found for what you need.

    Dead State is going to cover a lot of the same ground. If someone could combine Dead State and Day Z into a game, I don't think I'd ever leave the house

  3. #43
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    Better than life

  4. #44
    Network Hub Olero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryok View Post
    If someone could combine Dead State and Day Z into a game, I don't think I'd ever leave the house

    [... And there he sat, staring square-eyed at the monitor, playing Dead Z for almost 3 months on end now. Little did he know, the real zombie apocalypse did start weeks ago, and the zombers where moments from scratching at his door....]
    Mijn Uitlaatklep - My (Dutch) blog about games, music and more

  5. #45
    Network Hub roryok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olero View Post

    [... And there he sat, staring square-eyed at the monitor, playing Dead Z for almost 3 months on end now. Little did he know, the real zombie apocalypse did start weeks ago, and the zombers where moments from scratching at his door....]
    Hah! Imagine. Escaping from the horror of a real world zombie apocalypse by playing a zombie MMORPG

  6. #46
    Lesser Hivemind Node Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    @ roryok

    Does it have to be zombies? Otherwise you may want to keep an eye out for a fallout MMO, now that the legal issues are solved.

  7. #47
    Network Hub roryok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanbuoy View Post
    @ roryok

    Does it have to be zombies? Otherwise you may want to keep an eye out for a fallout MMO, now that the legal issues are solved.
    It certainly doesn't have to be zombies, but I much prefer the idea of a modern day setting rather than the fantastical retro-future of the fallout universe.

    I think there's a reason zombies are so popular lately. While on one hand they're completely fantastical and and can't really be explained by science (unless you go down the 28 days later "its-all-a-virus" route) , we've come to accept a world filled with zombies as an acceptable dramatic setting. In game terms, it means that the laws and social conventions of modern society no longer apply AND that there is a constant menace.

    This is something that I don't think really works in the post-nuclear war scenario, because apart from other survivors, there's no constant threat at large in the world. Because of this the fallout series has giant mutant animals and robots and all kinds of other weird stuff that just breaks the 4th wall for me. Don't get me wrong, I did play throught fallout 3, and I did enjoy it, but it's not the setting I'd choose for Empire of the Dead / Year Z / whatever you want to call it

    This is my dream game, and given the huge number of and success of zombie titles and the new Golden Age of gaming we're in, I don't think we'll be waiting long for it.

    Mix equal parts Day Z, Dead State, Skyrim and STALKER and its game of the decade time.

  8. #48
    Lesser Hivemind Node Timofee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Better than life
    Including cloudy Welsh beach? Yes please!

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryok View Post
    This is something that I don't think really works in the post-nuclear war scenario, because apart from other survivors, there's no constant threat at large in the world.
    I think the tabletop RPG Apocalypse World does this really well. The danger is all those other crazy people, not so much mutants. Everyone needs something and there's not much to go around. That's danger, right there. There's a bit of fantasy thrown in with the Psychic Maelstrom and the sorts of things Brainers and Hocuses do, but for the most part it's all about people.

    Nobody remembers how or why. Maybe nobody ever knew. The oldest living survivors have childhood memories of it: cities burning, society in chaos then collapse, families set to panicked light, the weird nights when the smoldering sky made midnight into a blood-colored half-day. Now the world is not what it was. Look around you: evidently, certainly, not what it was. But also close your eyes, open your brain: something is wrong. At the limits of perception, something howling, everpresent, full of hate and terror. From this, the world’s psychic maelstrom, we none of us have shelter.
    It's a somewhat generic apocalypse pitch, but the tone throughout the rulebook really makes it work. The way the rules and the Playbooks (AW's class-like-things) guide play sets a fantastic tone. A well run game of Apocalypse World just captures something really great about the post apocalytic setting without any help from mutants, zombies, nuclear war, or specifically futuristic technology (unless your group really wants to fit some of these things in, but they aren't there by default).

    I guess what I'm getting at is if Fallout 3 hadn't relied on scary mutants out in the wilds as much and had just left it up to all the mad characters and factions I encountered to make the world dramatic and scary and worth all the running and gun-totting it would have captured a lot of what you're asking for in terms of re-writing and abolishing social laws and creating constant menace. I think it had the right pieces.

    The world's gone mad, so have the people, but they aren't psychopaths murdering everything in sight (well ... the raiders were, but that could easily have been fixed so that maybe some weren't). They're people, and they've still got care and kindness in them. And that doesn't make it any less scary. Fallout had a lot of that.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  10. #50
    Network Hub roryok's Avatar
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    @gwathdring

    I love the idea that no-one remembers how the world ended. The mystery really adds something to the setting (as long as the game doesn't take you on a quest to find out why the world ended or whatever) not sure about the psychic maelstrom though.

    I guess my problem with the world descending into anarchy just from lack of resources is that I don't think this will ever happen. Even in the most chaotic and wartorn parts of the world there are still governments / authorities / factions. Civilisation is the default state of humans, and it just won't collapse on it's own.


    I'd also like to add that in my ideal sandbox world, bullets would be scarce, and improvised weapons would be the order of the day. I'd like to see a character be able to pick up anything and try to use it as a weapon. Whether it be a can of food or a sledgehammer, you should be able to throw or wield it.

    In the absence of bullets I'd also like to see a big focus on archery. Archery has been done fairly well in fantasy games but it's barely been touched on in modern games (apart from the odd crossbow, which isn't really the same)

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryok View Post
    @gwathdring

    I love the idea that no-one remembers how the world ended. The mystery really adds something to the setting (as long as the game doesn't take you on a quest to find out why the world ended or whatever) not sure about the psychic maelstrom though.
    The Psychic Maelstrom is great. It's not in your face (well, it can be, but not by default as with the "why the world ended" thing). The game functions because of Moves. Moves are what you can do. You can always do something like "I say ..." or "I walk over and ..." and the GM tells you how the world and NPCs respond. Where the g in rpg comes in is when you do one of 9 basic things. When those happen, you roll a die and either get what you want, get what you want with complications, or don't get what you want (and the GM makes sure the last one ALWAYS comes with complications). I would love to explain the wonderful bits of design that go into this, but I had a point: the psychic maelstrom. The maelstrom isn't a source of mana, or magic. It's a source of ... well weird. In fact, one of the main stats in the game? Weird. What can you do with it? One of the Basic Moves in the game deals with the Psychic Maelstrom:

    OPEN YOUR BRAIN
    When you open your brain to the world’s psychic maelstrom, roll+weird. On a hit, the MC will tell you something new and interesting about the current situation, and might ask you a question or two; answer them. On a 10+, the MC will give you good detail. On a 7–9, the MC will give you an impression. If you already know all there is to know, the MC will tell you that.
    [if you miss, something bad happens but not necessarily as a direct result of the maelstrom--that has to do with the general workings of the game and how it handles moves rather than this move in particular]
    What makes this really tick is the "MC asks you a question" part. One of the first questions you should ask the first time a player does this is "... so, what's the Psychic Maelstrom like?" and hopefully everyone answers something different and suitably mad. In the future, you describe it and add your own madness along these lines, or in the words of one of the games guiding principles, you "barf forth Apocalyptia." Make it real, make it weird. The second question you should ask is whatever gives the Maelstrom the most personality. Preferably something deeply personal about the character, maybe something that pushes them. Opening your brain, whether it gets you want you want or not, gives the GM a chance to give the world personality, find out (or help you create) interesting details about your character that are most certainly going to be used further down the road to make things more personal, dangerous, and so forth.

    A couple of the Playbooks have special moves tangentially tied to the Maelstronm. The Savvyhead can roll Weird to ask a few questions about any object he picks up--who held this last, where did it come from, what would I need to fix it? If he rolls a miss, his brain is opened to the Psychic Maelstrom. The Brainer can implant a mental suggestion with a touch. There are also the less weird folks--Gunlugger, Battlebabe (not necessarily female), Driver and others. They do what they say on the tin, and might never use the Maelstrom unless the Open their Brain.

    It's there both to allow a little bit of extra weird, and to create a more explicit sense of "what the hell happened here?" No one goes around throwing fireballs, assuming direct control, or anything like that. It's an excuse to be eccentric, to barf forth Apocalyptia, to create an atmostphere in which things like Megaton or Thunderdome could exist. Imagine there's a collective consciousness we can tap into, usually all it does is make us feel connected or empowered but sometimes it nudges things along, reveals something in the form of inspiration or whatever. Now imagine that consciousness after the Apocalypse. It's burnt, beat up, tired, tortured, angry, sad, a little less human. It still does some of those things it used to, but its all a little warped. Sometimes more than a little.

    I can see why you wouldn't like it, though. I just wanted to explain it a little better.

    Quote Originally Posted by roryok View Post
    I guess my problem with the world descending into anarchy just from lack of resources is that I don't think this will ever happen. Even in the most chaotic and wartorn parts of the world there are still governments / authorities / factions. Civilisation is the default state of humans, and it just won't collapse on it's own.
    Fair enough. I don't think a zombie apocalypse will ever happen, either, though. ;)

    That's why I like the mystery method so much. I guess that goes for a lot of science fiction ... I prefer a lot of things to be left unexplained unless the explanations make or break the world/story. Fallout is an example of the nuclear thing being central to the story.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 18-06-2012 at 10:40 AM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  12. #52
    Network Hub roryok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    The maelstrom isn't a source of mana, or magic. It's a source of ... well weird.
    Certainly sounds like it. I've never played any tabletop RPGs (unless you count HeroQuest, which is the map to my childhood) so it's all double dutch to me, but it sounds like an intriguing game mechanic - albeit one that doesn't translate to computer games

    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Fair enough. I don't think a zombie apocalypse will ever happen, either, though. ;)
    No, you're right. But my original point was that Zombie Apocalypse has become a sort of standard end-of-the-world scenario that we've come to accept it. It's almost more believable than something that actually theoretically could happen, like nuclear war or a virus. The most unrealistic aspect to most zombie films is that the protagonists don't realise what's going on and many have never even heard of zombies.

    The idea of a zombie apocalypse has become so socially acceptable that the CDC and the US Army have even revealed plans to deal with zombie outbreaks. The Irony is, even though these are obviously just publicity stunts, we're probably more prepared for a zombie outbreak than any other kind of actual, plausible catastrophe.

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryok View Post
    Certainly sounds like it. I've never played any tabletop RPGs (unless you count HeroQuest, which is the map to my childhood) so it's all double dutch to me, but it sounds like an intriguing game mechanic - albeit one that doesn't translate to computer games
    You'd be surprised what kinds of systems can translate into video games. ;) Never say never. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there're a lot of really innovative, well designed tabletop RPGs and I wish video games explored co-opting elements from more than DnD.

    Crap, now you've got me thinking about how to best translate Open Your Brain into a video game without cheating by taking control from the player. I've actually got a pretty good idea of how you could do it ... but I think I've been wildly off-topic for a while. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by roryok View Post
    It's almost more believable than something that actually theoretically could happen, like nuclear war or a virus.
    I guess I don't really see it that way. To me, Zombies are as silly as they ever were. I think what makes post-apocalyptic environments work best for me is when they don't show and end game. They instead show us a messed up pantomime of our society, what it might be like if we were a little rougher and had a little less to cling to. It can make for some great games, stories, commentaries on humanity and social structure, but to me it doesn't really make as much sense as, say, dystopian fiction in terms of providing a view into theoretically possible futures. So it doesn't need to seem plausible to me for it to be an effective post-apocalyptic work.

    Edit: But I recognize the cultural phenomenon you speak of, and the point is well taken.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 18-06-2012 at 10:59 AM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  14. #54
    Network Hub roryok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    I guess I don't really see it that way. To me, Zombies are as silly as they ever were.
    Edit: But I recognize the cultural phenomenon you speak of, and the point is well taken.
    I understand not everyone feels the same way about zombies. Likewise, a lot of people are happy to sit down and watch Die Hard or whatever, and not find issue with one man killing 30-40 people by himself and being morally and legally exhonerated afterward. That's another convention we've fallen into in movies and games, one that's far more widespread, but one that again not everyone is happy to accept, even just for entertainment sake. and I should clarify I'm not talking about people's moral objection to it, but rather people's unwillingness to suspend disbelief and go with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    I think what makes post-apocalyptic environments work best for me is when they don't show and end game. They instead show us a messed up pantomime of our society, what it might be like if we were a little rougher and had a little less to cling to. It can make for some great games, stories, commentaries on humanity and social structure, but to me it doesn't really make as much sense as, say, dystopian fiction in terms of providing a view into theoretically possible futures. So it doesn't need to seem plausible to me for it to be an effective post-apocalyptic work.
    Oh I don't think it needs to be a plausible near-future setting just to explore humanity and tell interesting stories. Battlestar Galactica is a great example of this. The show is more commonly identified as Space Opera, but if you think about it, it's more post-apocalyptic than anything else. Galactica had some amazing, gripping human stories - stories about people doing anything to survive, and trying to maintain or impose civilisation on a dwindling, underfed population. It also had the constant menace in the form of the cylons. Had the show just been about wandering the void it would have been far less interesting.

    So I don't think it needs to seem plausible. But the thread is "Your Dream Sandbox or Simulation", and my dream sandbox is a plausible one (apart from the zombies) =)

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roryok View Post

    So I don't think it needs to seem plausible. But the thread is "Your Dream Sandbox or Simulation", and my dream sandbox is a plausible one (apart from the zombies) =)
    It's certainly a damn good theme for a sandbox game. The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards a post-apocalyptic setting for my dream sandbox, too. I'm a sucker for a good magic system, but having an in depth social system and AI for non-combat situations would be a hundred times more feasible in a post-apocalyptic setting. Fewer people, higher tensions. A lot easier to endow with satisfying responses than large, urban crowds. I mean ... it's easy to make urban settings respond properly to explosions and such but a lot harder to make them feel alive or to make a true urban sandbox outside of management style games.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Zombies are plausible depending on how you define "zombie". If you define zombie as an actual undead corpse walking around and craving brains, then no it's not too plausible. If you define zombie as many games have as someone infected with some kind of pathogen that causes them to revert to an animal like state, then yeah it's pretty plausible. There are many pathogens that affect the mind, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that one such pathogen could cause people to become mindless and violent.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    If you define zombie as many games have as someone infected with some kind of pathogen that causes them to revert to an animal like state, then yeah it's pretty plausible. There are many pathogens that affect the mind, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that one such pathogen could cause people to become mindless and violent.
    Hmm. I'm not sure ... I can't think of many viruses that

    1) Effect the mind anywhere near that substantially
    2) Are highly contagious
    3) Are fast-acting
    4) Aren't fast-killing.
    5) Are not physically debilitating.

    If we take out 3, there's Syphilis. If we take out 5) the options open up to various "fevers" and a few other things that sit vaguely in the back of my mind, but that doesn't give us very effective zombies. I don't know that there's much precedent for it. There's a fungus that mind-controls ants, but that's much simple machinery.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    I think the genre pretty much peaked with the first Mercenaries. That game owned. The only thing I would change? More C4. Make the bullets C4. Buildings? C4 foundations. Maybe replace the enemies with nitroglycerin bowling pins, but that's it!

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Hmm. I'm not sure ... I can't think of many viruses that

    1) Effect the mind anywhere near that substantially
    2) Are highly contagious
    3) Are fast-acting
    4) Aren't fast-killing.
    5) Are not physically debilitating.

    If we take out 3, there's Syphilis. If we take out 5) the options open up to various "fevers" and a few other things that sit vaguely in the back of my mind, but that doesn't give us very effective zombies. I don't know that there's much precedent for it. There's a fungus that mind-controls ants, but that's much simple machinery.
    Obviously there isn't a currently known pathogen that turns people into zombies...

    My point was that it's plausible for such a thing to occur. Viruses, bacteria, and other such business are constantly changing and evolving they are not static. One does not have to look too far to find a pathogen that does cause similar behavior (i.e. insanity and violence), rabies is a common virus that causes such symptoms.

    Also syphilis is not a virus it's a bacterium.

  20. #60
    Network Hub Splynter's Avatar
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    My dream simulation doesn't need to have too much in the way of 'game' to start with, it just needs to accurately simulate what it sets out to. Game simulations are usually only a reasonable facsimile of their subjects, and make due with sandbox elements to hold attention (I can't blame them, running at an acceptable frame rate will trump fidelity in games any time).

    What I would most like to see done properly is forests. Forests in games are pitiable husks of the real thing. I love forests, and have been in many. Most of us here probably have as well. I cannot think of any forest in any video game that looked or felt like the real forests I've spent time in. Video game forests lack the density and diversity of those in reality. Basically, a hiking simulator (no, not the Elder Scrolls).

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