RPS Blood Bowl League - The many, many Divisions of Death!

[Zoraster]

In place of multiple feeder divisions at the base of the table, how about a single challenge-based league?

I’m not a fan of using an unscheduled feeder for a scheduled league. Two very different formats both on and off the table. My biggest issue with the concept would be time zone related. Right now we accommodate non-European coaches easily enough but would there be enough coaches to provide a new Khryses with 'out of hours' games in an unscheduled feeder? People make time for scheduled games but play unscheduled ones when it suits them.

For what it’s worth an unscheduled feeder would definitely be an insurmountable barrier for some; I can state that with confidence as I’m one of them :) Two hours is a huge amount of time for some people to have free on an ad hoc basis. I could never be relegated into/reroll to an unscheduled feeder so that would be the end of my time in the DoD. It may not be a large constituency but I doubt I'm totally unique in this respect.

[ChainsawHands]

What exactly is the problem we're trying to fix with the current system?

I know it takes a while to get everyone signed up, but we can't use a challenge league + spreadsheet (no admin defaults / resets) and we mostly seem pretty happy with 4 teams/division, so unless the problem is "it's insufficiently complicated" I say we leave it as it is...

[Screwie]

@Zoraster: That's a good point Zoraster and one I didn't think of, thanks for raising it.

I have no particular affection for my brainstorm above the other ideas Jiiim/Jolima/Everblue/boots have mentioned, I just raised it as I thought it might be a potentially interesting avenue to explore.

@ChainsawHands: Because of drop-outs and restarts, my current team has shared a division with Kajo's team for almost their entire career. Kajo's a nice chap and all, but I would like a bit more variation.

Also the road to the upper two divisions and the championship seems really long (although that is not as much a bother for me as the other issue).

Both these issues could be addressed with a broader, flatter ladder to climb. A tier system as boots described would also do the trick. Random allocations of promotions/demotions would also help.

I'd be happy if any or all of those changes came to be. I vote is for as-yet-unspecified change!

EDIT: More words.

[sketchseven]

I don't think a challenge feeder is the way forward. I know it's only been my first season in the League but the 4-teams-to-a-division structure works well for me. I think either a move to the tier structure that Everblue outlined or keeping it as it is.

[groovychainsaw]

No, I'm against a challenge feeder as well, I think, I wouldn't want to face that as a new player, for many of the reasons outlined by people above, so lets put that to one side.

So, given that, what's the general desire for broader, 4-division-wide 'tiers' lower down (So keep champs, then 2 parallel then 4 divs every level below that)? Whilst the admin overhead (in terms of people applying etc., waiting on folk to start our season) would be the same, it gives me more scope for moving people sideways to rearrange and offers a quicker march to the top for everyone. This leads to the obvious consequence that you could quite easily face 500TV+ differences if you get a swift rise through the ranks. Also, quite powerful teams, after a pair of poor seasons, could be facing some fairly new up-and-comers. Is that more fun or less fun? I can't decide :-).

I guess I'm looking at the newer players as much as us oldies for thoughts here, would a shallower structure have made it more appealing for you to play (for the chance at GLORY!) or was the idea of a lower, noob-friendly few seasons before GLORY more appealing?

[President Weasel]

No, I'm against a challenge feeder as well, I think, I wouldn't want to face that as a new player, for many of the reasons outlined by people above, so lets put that to one side.

So, given that, what's the general desire for broader, 4-division-wide 'tiers' lower down (So keep champs, then 2 parallel then 4 divs every level below that)? Whilst the admin overhead (in terms of people applying etc., waiting on folk to start our season) would be the same, it gives me more scope for moving people sideways to rearrange and offers a quicker march to the top for everyone. This leads to the obvious consequence that you could quite easily face 500TV+ differences if you get a swift rise through the ranks. Also, quite powerful teams, after a pair of poor seasons, could be facing some fairly new up-and-comers. Is that more fun or less fun? I can't decide :-).

I guess I'm looking at the newer players as much as us oldies for thoughts here, would a shallower structure have made it more appealing for you to play (for the chance at GLORY!) or was the idea of a lower, noob-friendly few seasons before GLORY more appealing?

I like things the way they are; the long slog to the top makes being at or near the top more satisfying.

[JayTee]

I really like Everblue's tier system because it mixes up the teams a lot more than currently. I seem to regularly play the same people repeatedly, which is fine but there's not a whole lot movement around at the 'higher' leagues.

The current system works for me, but I'd quite like to at least give the tier system a whirl for a season just to see how much variety it could give.

One thing I would be against is any kind of filter challenge league, for similar reasons to Zoraster, but also any league/system that does some kind of TV-filtering. One of the biggest downfalls of the Cyanide matching system is that it is TV based, while one of the biggest strengths of the DoD is that you can go from giving away 200k in inducements in one match to receiving the same again in your next match. That keeps coaches on their toes, and some teams (like 'flings or Goblins) are somewhat designed around having a TV disadvantage.

[Everblue]

As long as I never have to play Heliocentric's gang foulers, I'll be happy.

Also - I would like a flatter league for more of a chance of GLORY. I think a TV difference of 500+ in relatively rare cases would be be a price worth paying.

Also also - The ability to assign teams within a tier to divisions as you see fit should enable you (in theory at least) to smooth out some of these imbalances.

[groovychainsaw]

I'd prefer to keep team allocation as 'random' in most cases if i could everblue, as I think it would be hard to agree as to what a 'fair' division would look like - all bashy, 50/50 bashy/agile, all same TV, wide range of TVs?

Random drawn lots to assign people to divisions in a tier (we could have a live drawing, FA cup style!??) with the ability to subsequently 'seed' if opponents ended up facing each other again (i currently prevent more than 2 people ending up in the same division again where at all possible, and I'd stick to that to try and give people variety in their opposition).

[Screwie]

I like things the way they are; the long slog to the top makes being at or near the top more satisfying.

I tend to think getting there should be easier, but staying up there is the real challenge. :)

(we could have a live drawing, FA cup style!??)

Hahaha, I like this idea! :D Not sure how it would work, though...

[Heliocentric]

I don't want challenge leagues(Divisions?) to have anything to do with the league. Can you imagine anyone but fellow undead or maybe goblins welcoming a fouling opponent? It's the sweet fear of players with loads of skills which make div o' death exciting to play.

Got an Elf with blodge, fend, st5 sidestep and agility 6? GANGFOUL, welcome to the team.

[boots468]

I'm in agreement with Screwie on this one - getting to the top shouldn't seem unsurmountable but staying up near the top should be tricky - at the moment it would take a new/rebooting player a minimum of 8 months of solid back-to-back promotions to get to play in the top div (barring drop-outs).

Live random draws would be fun too - hoping to put in with stunty teams and to try and avoid any notorious gang foulers!

[potatoedoughnut]

Another vote for no challenge system, but that seems to be pretty dead at the moment.

If there is a system that introduces more variety with same/less work from admins I'm all for it. The top couple divisions have certainly developed some regulars, so if there is a way to get new players up faster that would be nice. I would like to play against all these lovely new folks, not that I don't enjoy playing Jiiiiim's super lizards :)

[Jiiiiim]

I like the way I'm an end-of-level boss for you.

[potatoedoughnut]

I like the way I'm an end-of-level boss for you.

When was the last time you lost a game?

[Jiiiiim]

February >_>

[President Weasel]

It's not a coincidence that the "regulars" are where they are, it's a function of most of them being better at Blood Bowl at me, and indeed most of the people in the league. Any league that sorts by merit is likely to have the same double handful of people in the top bracket and the couple of brackets below, changing places with each other every couple of seasons - apart from when they take a break and start a new team and make their way up again.

[sketchseven]

I think the shallower tier system would be a nice change up - can always try it for the next season as a taster and see how we get on. I think those underdog matches of low TV vs high TV could be pretty cool; sure you might come up against a higher TV team, but there's nothing like electrocuting their star player with a bit of underhand magic and stealing the ball for the win.

[potatoedoughnut]

It's not a coincidence that the "regulars" are where they are, it's a function of most of them being better at Blood Bowl at me, and indeed most of the people in the league. Any league that sorts by merit is likely to have the same double handful of people in the top bracket and the couple of brackets below, changing places with each other every couple of seasons - apart from when they take a break and start a new team and make their way up again.

That's true, but I'm sure some of the new(er) players are quite good at BB; it just takes them 8 months or whatever to get into the top couple divisions.

[Screwie]

Not debating that point Mr President, even in a shallower system the cream will stay at the top.

The path to the top, even for a taste, still takes an age though.