View Poll Results: What should the new look divisions look like?

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  • No change! I fear change!

    12 29.27%
  • Triplets! I love triplets!

    9 21.95%
  • GC's lovely 1-2-quad based tier system. It's clearly the best!

    20 48.78%
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  1. #5361
    Network Hub potatoedoughnut's Avatar
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    Jump up is good if you want to get piling on. Or you could give him dodge or sidestep and then give him guard or stand firm (don't take SS and SF).


    About NieA7's plan: it looks like doing the promotions/demotions from gamma to omega would be kind of a pain. Also, how is omega structured? As 6 different "ladders" like we have now?
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

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  2. #5362
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic View Post
    Right, Helio, your Orcish complement looks as follow:
    Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Doubles.

    Usually, the next skill should have been Piling On. And now, well, I guess I have to think of something. Hmm... Sidestep?
    Hard to look past dodge unless you're not planning on taking it on any doubles. Other than that Jump Up/Sidestep depending on whether he's a killer blitzer or a blitzing blitzer.

    Quote Originally Posted by potatoedoughnut View Post
    About NieA7's plan: it looks like doing the promotions/demotions from gamma to omega would be kind of a pain. Also, how is omega structured? As 6 different "ladders" like we have now?
    It's not a good plan if it's not overcomplicated.

    Gamma to Omega would treat the bottom two teams from every Gamma Div as if they were their own Div and go on points first, then TD/Cas etc - a pain compared to the other levels but that's the price for having Omega flexible. Omega would be flat like the other levels, the only difference is that it's a random size so we can accommodate more or less coaches as needed.

  3. #5363
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowKey View Post
    Fixed that for you
    I learnt from the best.

  4. #5364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakysh View Post
    That's genius. All the names have to be appended with "the Bastard" though

    "William the Bastard" etc
    Don't forget Sean the Irish Bastard!

  5. #5365
    Lesser Hivemind Node ntw's Avatar
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    Screwie beat me, it was the first of 2 Blood Bowl losses tonight. I am sad. :(
    Admin for the RPS Divisions of Death
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    When asked, he merely responded with a wry bleat followed by a swift kick to the testicles.
    - Rakysh

  6. #5366
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cubo View Post
    Tried Bastards before, Cyanide won't let them through :(

  7. #5367
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic View Post
    Right, Helio, your Orcish complement looks as follow:
    Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Doubles.

    Usually, the next skill should have been Piling On. And now, well, I guess I have to think of something. Hmm... Sidestep?
    It is rather simple what situations am I not equipped for?

    Dodgers splat, BD's Splat, what's wrong with this picture?

    WHAT IF THEY ARE LYING DOWN

    +Sneaky git.
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  8. #5368
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    Match report

    Xennys Berserkers (Norse) vs Doomdark's Revenge (me, Chaos)

    RPS Divisions of Death division H, match 3


    Xenny's team won the toss and decided to kick, immediately buggering up my plan for the game. I had 90k of inducements and induced a babe.

    The match proceeded as expected between a rookie Norse team and a rookie Chaos team, with Xenny's thrower immediately failing to pick up the ball despite the use of one of his team's two rerolls. The stage was set for, basically, a massive untidy fight in the centre of the pitch.

    A key moment was the fact that the Yheti was dragged out of position by frenzy pushbacks and was quite a long way from the ball, so the Chaos warriors' high strength became more and more of a deciding factor.

    The crowd (well, ok, I) gasped in excitement when Lord Doomdark himself picked up the ball and made for the line, only for him to be pulled to the ground by a squad of sweating Scandinavians. Finally the Beastman Ice Fear grabbed the ball and managed to cross the line for the score. 0-1 to Doomdark's Revenge

    I kicked to Xenny again, and he threw players forward in an attempt to get a quick passing TD. Unfortunately his receivers decided to fall over, and the half ended. 0-1 to Doomdark's Revenge at half time

    In the second half the Chaos team receive the ball and began an orderly march through the outnumbered Norse to the line. All was going well until the Chaos coach (who was somewhat drunk on gin at that stage) moved the wrong damn beastman to provide an assist and finished the turn with the ball carrier easily blitzable by the cheery Norse, and with neither side having a reroll left.

    Some rather cackhanded punching ensued on both sides, but the chaos warrior The Lord of Thrall managed to pick up the ball, his markers were chain-pushed away and he lumbered in for the touchdown on turn 16. 0-2 to Doomdark's Revenge

    Xenny had one turn to beat up the 3 unfortunate beastmen on the LOS and the game finished 0-2 to Doomdark's Revenge.

    Many thanks for the game Xenny.

    EDIT - I should say that the 6 man foul I used to remove the Yheti in the second half was something even the mighty Heliocentric would have approved of...
    Last edited by Everblue; 20-06-2012 at 12:59 AM.

  9. #5369
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    EDIT - I should say that the 6 man foul I used to remove the Yheti in the second half was something even the mighty Heliocentric would have approved of...[/I]
    AV8, 5 assists, effective AV3, 1 in 36 failure
    (1 in 6 ejection)+(1 in 6 ejection(96.333%))
    (21/36 stun, 9/36 KO, 6/36 Cas(96.333%))

    Yeah, certainly worth it to get rid of ST5
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  10. #5370
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    I've always wondered what goes through the mind of a serial fouler.

  11. #5371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    AV8, 5 assists, effective AV3, 1 in 36 failure
    (1 in 6 ejection)+(1 in 6 ejection(96.333%))
    (21/36 stun, 9/36 KO, 6/36 Cas(96.333%))

    Yeah, certainly worth it to get rid of ST5
    Yes, it was a good game. The initial pick-up-with-reroll failure right need the half way line set the tone! The Yheti has +AV though, so effective AV4. It resulted in a KO and ejection.

  12. #5372
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    I particularly dislike the claw skill on the Yheti.

    Fortunately Xenny's does not have mighty blow yet, and if Rhlok and Sketch can manufacture a draw in their final game I will not have to play against the terrifying bastard next season.

  13. #5373
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cubo View Post
    Thank you, kind sir.

    By the way, have other noticed that if both sides end the Blood Bowl process at the same time, the match won't get registered? I'm not so sure about this so I'd like to have it confirmed.
    The exact same thing happened to The Brain and I in our last match.

    Regarding NieA7's plan and general restructuring: as a slightly (5th season now?) new player, I actually rather like the current system. Annoying to comprehend how long it would take to ascend to championhood, but less annoying after I got myself promoted up and promptly knocked back down. The big virtues it has are #1: 4 teams per div, which is wonderful for meaningful games and doesn't look in danger of changing at all, and #2: real feelings of progress at all levels. So yes, when I started in Div E, it looked like it would take forever to climb all the way up the ladder. But it was more palatable because moving up from Div E to Div 4 felt like a real achievement. I like NieA7's plan for the most part, but worry that the Omega tier (especially since up to 50% of the DoD would be in it) might eliminate that sense of achievement, with its limited opportunities for promotion. That would disproportionately hit new players, too.

  14. #5374
    Network Hub boots468's Avatar
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    For the new league system -

    I think the main reason we are doing this is for easier admin (especially with drop outs), with the secondary goals of mixing players up a bit more and possibly decreasing the time gap from new teams to potential top teams.

    Switching to a tier system with randomised team placement inside the tier seems to solve the admin and mixing it up aims, but for the widening of the divisions, how about Everblue's idea from a few pages ago? I.e. instead of a pyramid of

    Alpha: Champs
    Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
    Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
    Omega: The Rest

    It's be more like now but with three columns rather than two, i.e.:

    Alpha: Champs
    Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
    Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7
    Delta: Divs 8, 9, 10
    Epsilon: Divs 11, 12, 13
    Zeta : Divs 14, 15, 16
    etc

    This would still decrease the gap from top to bottom, and give the admins more scope for switching players around but keep a more similar structure to the moment (because we're all broadly OK with the current scheme, and change is scary :-) )

  15. #5375
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    @Prester: Nice try, Mr. Pointyear, but no thanks. Altough I like the Orcish Passing Game TM, these skills won't be of much use on the muscular mayhem that is Helio. ;)

    @Cyberpunkdreams: This is not a puny Elf who is afraid of getting punched in the face! :)

    @Screwie, Potatoe: Jump Up was the second skill I was thinking about. Since this guy was designed as a killer anyways, I might go with that. Then Piling on as the next skill.

    @NieA7: Yeah, Dodge was the third skill I had a look at. ;) Protection against Defender Stumbles is nice, as is having someone who can pull some desperation moves towards the endzone or my own backfield. However, I am not sure if I want to go for Dodge on all my doubles on this team and 1-2 dodgers don't help a lot when facing Tackle. Also, I'm trying to improve on my positional game and to reduce the amount of high risk actions. Maybe I'll take sidestep on one of the other Blitzers (I've still got some players without a single level-up and therefore room for double rolls).

    @Heliocentric: I feel like you should have the last word in this, but Sneaky Git (which is still completely lacking on this team!) is just too much of a risk for him. As one of the main engines of the team, I don't want to have a huge lump of TV being sent off in exchange for a possible KO result against an opponent. I will get me some fouling power with my next Lineorc though (Quantacat has bitten the dust last game, taking a fist full of SPPs with him), maybe even hire a Goblin dedicated to this job.

    Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'll think it through once more. At least I've got a bit of time to decide until the next season starts. I also really need to start getting some Guard on my team. Nuffle's blessings have provided me with either non-bashy opponents or silly dice-luck until now, but I fear the day I have to face Chaos or Khemri teams.

  16. #5376
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    I like the idea of having fewer steps up the ladder, and allowing admins to do some sort of random draw for the actual divisions within the 'tiers'.

    This has nothing to do with me wanting to climb the ladder faster (I actually agree with the couple of people who are saying that the sense of accomplishment is really strong now, and that rearranging it might lessen that).

    Rather, I think that this style will have 3 major benefits:
    1. It'll make adminning easier. You simply decide on promotions/relegations and then random draw.
    2. It'll feel less punishing to reboot or need to take a break
    3. This is the big one. I think it'll result in much more social mixing, which is ultimately one of the most fun parts of playing in this nice, friendly league. Eventually, I'd love to see if we can complicate things a little more by having some sort of system in place where certain players can 'request' a particular opponent in order to continue a long-running rivalry. I have only vague ideas about how such a system would work and I don't think we should think about adding this right now, but it's the sort of fun little extra that might be possible with this new system and is impossible with the current ladder.

    I have one more consideration to throw into the mix: Maybe it's better to keep with the current system for a couple more seasons and see what this new edition is bringing? If it's possible to incorporate it into the current league, that might be a better time for a shakeup?
    Last edited by Dentharial; 20-06-2012 at 08:29 AM.

  17. #5377
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    That column system doesn't scale well, however. Although I don't know if there is any expected increase in the amount of players, a tree-like/pyramid-like system scales well to increasing numbers so that the distance to top grows slowly. Here are pictures of
    CompleteBinaryTree_1000.gif
    a binary tree
    CompleteTernaryTree_1000.gif
    and a ternary tree.

    So the nodes would be divisions of four teams. New divisions would be added as a child to the highest, leftmost free node. For binary tree, the winner of a division would be promoted and two last teams would get demoted to random child node. For ternary every team except the winner would get demoted. This is pretty much as has been suggested earlier, but there isn't any arbitrary feeder leagues.

    The difficulty here would be demoting the teams in divisions of the second-to-bottom tier childless nodes (like the node 13 in the ternary tree and nodes 13-15 in the binary tree). Also, due to teams quitting, you'd promote teams from the child nodes so the bottom tier divisions would require additional adjusting. Perhaps the tree should be filled by first assigning one child node for each of the higher tier nodes. When there are no more childless nodes, start assigning the second (and third) children. Thus each branch would always have a path to the "bottom level"
    Last edited by El Cubo; 20-06-2012 at 08:41 AM.

  18. #5378
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    I clearly need a new day job.

    Quote Originally Posted by somanyrobots View Post
    ...I like NieA7's plan for the most part, but worry that the Omega tier (especially since up to 50% of the DoD would be in it) might eliminate that sense of achievement, with its limited opportunities for promotion. That would disproportionately hit new players, too.
    There's no greater or lesser chance of getting promoted out of Omega than there is any other level - top team goes up, everyone else doesn't (true for all levels except Alpha). The only way Omega is different is that it's size isn't fixed (as it depends how many teams we've got playing) and there's no way down from it (or at least so long as we have less than 88 coaches). I'm not sure that's an argument against what you're saying though as I agree with you, it would actually be quite hard to be promoted - it's just hard to get promoted at every level, rather than only Omega, and for every other level it's a lot easier to get demoted. Not sure if this would be a good thing or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Cubo View Post
    ...The difficulty here would be demoting the teams in divisions of the second-to-bottom tier childless nodes (like the node 13 in the ternary tree and nodes 13-15 in the binary tree). Also, due to teams quitting, you'd promote teams from the child nodes so the bottom tier divisions would require additional adjusting. Perhaps the tree should be filled by first assigning one child node for each of the higher tier nodes. When there are no more childless nodes, start assigning the second (and third) children.
    My solution to this was the shared demotion pool across the penultimate level, but that is a bit opaque at best. Assigning each node specific children would make the admin pretty much as complicated as it is now though, as specific drop-outs would need specific promotions rather than just grabbing the next available team from the level. That's probably for the admins to decide though.

  19. #5379
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    Maybe we should just leave the league the way it is but with random assignment to divisions across the two "columns"?

  20. #5380
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots468 View Post
    For the new league system -

    I think the main reason we are doing this is for easier admin (especially with drop outs), with the secondary goals of mixing players up a bit more and possibly decreasing the time gap from new teams to potential top teams.

    Switching to a tier system with randomised team placement inside the tier seems to solve the admin and mixing it up aims, but for the widening of the divisions, how about Everblue's idea from a few pages ago? I.e. instead of a pyramid of

    Alpha: Champs
    Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
    Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
    Omega: The Rest

    It's be more like now but with three columns rather than two, i.e.:

    Alpha: Champs
    Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
    Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7
    Delta: Divs 8, 9, 10
    Epsilon: Divs 11, 12, 13
    Zeta : Divs 14, 15, 16
    etc

    This would still decrease the gap from top to bottom, and give the admins more scope for switching players around but keep a more similar structure to the moment (because we're all broadly OK with the current scheme, and change is scary :-) )
    This seems like the best compromise between all the ideas that have been presented so far. It shortens the climb up the ladder but not as dramatically as others, and has enough divisions within each tier to make randomisation interesting. With only 3 divisions to fill per tier it is easy to expand or contract the league as participation varies too.

    The Champs would have only the winning team remaining from season to season, which is nice and competitive.

    For the lower divisions we could have the last one or two teams relegated, depending on how people feel. I would be in favour of something similar to our current system, ie:
    • 1st place: Advance up a tier.
    • 2nd: Stay where you are.
    • 3rd: Move to a random other division in the same tier.
    • 4th: Drop down a tier (or move to a random other division in the same tier if you're in the bottom tier).

    Alternatively, swap 2nd and 3rd place effects. Or ignore the sideways transfers entirely. Or go nuts randomly re-assign 2nd and 3rd (and 4th at the bottom tier) place, shove them all into a draw. Might be fun. :)

    Upper division and championship aside, having just a single promotion, relegation and maybe side-regation (???) in each division is I imagine slightly less admin work than multiple relegations per division, and random allocation is less of a braintax than our current system already.
    Last edited by Screwie; 20-06-2012 at 10:56 AM.

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