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  1. #41
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    Why the ending of Mass Effect 3 sucked in two words (the shortest length I could come up with): Screwed narrative.

    That, in itself, means nothing though. What was screwed about it? Is that fully indicative of it? I watched all of the smudboy deconstructions on YouTube and they detail all of the reasons why it falls apart. Even if you think about the more obvious points brought up instead of the particulars, there's still a crap-load to be drawn to.

    Really, BioWare's writing is bad and they should feel bad.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Not really, the dude just goes into in depth explaining the narrative flaws. Frankly given the amount of time you've wasted here arguing against peoples criticisms of the endings I'm pretty flabbergasted that you've not actually watched this (it's been linked to before on more than one occasion).
    Is there really anything in it that hasn't been talked about to death here already? Honest question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic
    Your logic is similar to me saying "Explain what is wrong with the current economy and why, in 20 words or less or their is nothing wrong with the economy.".
    "Money on computers isn't real money. Someone noticed."

    Maybe that's why this whole ending thing rages on so much though. It's not one problem, it's myriad small issues, each of which bothers different people (closure, last minute plot twist, blown-up relays x2, war assets not directly linking in, no recognition of previous actions, no companions in final discussion and tons more).

    I guess it's somewhat like the Stephen Roberts atheism argument* - everyone who doesn't like the ending finds that one or more of those things (or many others) bothers them enough to turn them off the ending. The rest they're not so bothered about. Therefore it follows that some of us won't be bothered by any of the issues enough to make us hate the ending.

    *I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post

    "Money on computers isn't real money. Someone noticed."
    Try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Maybe that's why this whole ending thing rages on so much though. It's not one problem, it's myriad small issues, each of which bothers different people (closure, last minute plot twist, blown-up relays x2, war assets not directly linking in, no recognition of previous actions, no companions in final discussion and tons more).

    I guess it's somewhat like the Stephen Roberts atheism argument* - everyone who doesn't like the ending finds that one or more of those things (or many others) bothers them enough to turn them off the ending. The rest they're not so bothered about. Therefore it follows that some of us won't be bothered by any of the issues enough to make us hate the ending.

    *I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
    I don't think that's an apt analogy, nor do I think his atheism argument is sound, but I'm not going to get into that here. (note: I am an atheist)

    Your new argument seems to be centered around disproving a statement nobody made about how it's impossible to like the ME3 endings. You've kind of abandoned your old argument and created a strawman here with this new one, so I do believe we are at an impasse.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Is there really anything in it that hasn't been talked about to death here already? Honest question.
    Given you apparently didn't watch the video the first time around when the whole storyline issues were addressed months back I can't really say whether you've personally heard the arguments before or not. The extent of your seeming apathy to fully investigate a subject isn't something I account for I'm afraid. My recommendation is you man up and make the time to watch the video and decide for yourself.
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  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It's not one problem, it's myriad small issues, each of which bothers different people (closure, last minute plot twist, blown-up relays x2, war assets not directly linking in, no recognition of previous actions, no companions in final discussion and tons more).
    None of those things are small issues. Closure is what gives the entire story meaning, that lingering thought that is to be taken from it. Without appropriate closure, everything beforehand becomes unravelled and all you can take from it is "What am I supposed to take from this?" Last minute plot twists are rarely used because 99% of the time they suck. One of the reasons why the Star Wars one is liked so much is because it's one of the few examples where this actually is done well and fundamentally adds or changes the previous narrative in a positive way. Why does Vader want Luke to fight with him? Oh, it's because he's a Jedi-in-training and having one fight for the Empire strengthens them. Well, that's partially true, but really, there's a more intimate reason...

    The relays are easily dismissed because the error with them is simple - the inconsistency was immediately ret-conned, but its overwhelming stupidity initially meant that the entire galaxy was wiped out. That's...a pretty good reason to dislike an ending when your setting and all the effort put into it to protect it is dismissed by your own actions, of which you have no choice in. The war assets is a massive element because we're introduced to them early on as a means to gauge our successfulness, but at the end it essentially equates to nothing more than an in-game progress chart and specific-codex that adds nothing, yet there was so much opportunity for doing so. It was one of the fundamental narratives of the entire game, but in reality it was near-meaningless.

    The lack of recognition and interaction with squad mates is similar to the closure issue. Whilst imagination should play a large part in what happens, you still need a guide, otherwise you might as well just provide a set-up and go "Okay, whatever you want to happens magically happens." Worse though is that the entire series, again, has been about influencing the events of an entire galaxy. To have no idea of your actions, in an interactive-based play area, is one of the worst things you can do narratively. Again, it makes what you did almost meaningless.

    People are rather against having their actions prove to be meaningless at the end of a considerable amount of time spent. Nothing about the ending's suckage was small. It was just awful. The extended cut doesn't even help too much, with some of the worst narrative failings still existing.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    Why the ending of Mass Effect 3 sucked in two words (the shortest length I could come up with): Screwed narrative.
    Failed promise.

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    I think "nonsensical bullshit" is the most apt if we are going for two words.

  8. #48
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    Screwed nonsensical narrative bullshit; failed promise.

    How about that?
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  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    We could simplify that to just "bullshit".

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    We could simplify that to just "bullshit".
    To be fair that works for the economy too.

    I'm discussing, rather than arguing, gents. I find the sheer strength and force of the backlash to be intriguing in and of itself. Speculating on why is interesting. And why so many hated it but so many games journos didn't. It worked for me despite getting a number of things wrong.

    And my dear Kad, I'm afraid I'll have to remain a boy as sitting and watching someone rant for 40 minutes about the ending is past my personal threshold of bother for this topic. I'll leave the manly video watching to the real men.

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    To be fair that works for the economy too.

    I'm discussing, rather than arguing, gents. I find the sheer strength and force of the backlash to be intriguing in and of itself. Speculating on why is interesting. And why so many hated it but so many games journos didn't. It worked for me despite getting a number of things wrong.

    And my dear Kad, I'm afraid I'll have to remain a boy as sitting and watching someone rant for 40 minutes about the ending is past my personal threshold of bother for this topic. I'll leave the manly video watching to the real men.
    I mean this in the nicest way possible, but perhaps you are simply too ignorant of things such as science and logic to see all the glaring flaws in the ME3 ending.

    As for game journalists, who cares what they think, they aren't even real people.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I mean this in the nicest way possible, but perhaps you are simply too ignorant of things such as science and logic to see all the glaring flaws in the ME3 ending.
    Could be it, I'll admit that I haven't read much sci-fi outside of Iain M Banks. Or maybe I find it easier to suspend disbelief.

    On the other hand maybe people going into it having been told how bad it was were already set to nitpick and hate it.

  13. #53
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    I knew it was bad going into it (I got to the ending at least a week after everyone else) and initially thought it was okay. Then I realised, the more I thought about it, that it was bad. I think that was the extent of previous influence on a lot of people. Something bad is bad, whether or not you go into it being told so and agree, or discover it on your own. There is no conspiracy to the ending. There is no need to have specifically read SF to get why this ending was bad. ME is pulp sci-fi at its core, where there is a central idea/theme and the rest is established around the characters. ME3's ending failed because both of these were ignored or changed for no reason.
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  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I'll have to remain a boy as sitting and watching someone rant for 40 minutes about the ending is past my personal threshold of bother for this topic.
    The fact that you think it's a rant without having seen a second of footage says everything anyone needs to know about you really Dean. Given your apparent desire to make broad judgements about the people who were unhappy about the ending of the game at any given opportunity, but complete unwillingness to put any actual leg work in to at least understand their concerns marks you out as little more than a tourist in terms of the bigger ME3 conversation Vs pretty much everyone else here truth be told. Please feel free to postulate some more about how your life is so busy that you don't have the time for these things though.

    And why so many hated it but so many games journos didn't.
    Because on the whole most reviewers are rarely invested in narrative. Thus why sub par B movie script games like MW2 can score 90+ reviews (storyline is not a priority). Games reviews are pretty much the antithesis of film reviews in that regard.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 04-07-2012 at 08:22 PM.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    The fact that you think it's a rant without having seen a second of footage says everything anyone needs to know about you really Dean.
    I think someone called it 'a bit ranty' in the original 27-page thread which I read all of. And seriously, what's with all the personal attacks all of a sudden? You're not that guy.

    I'm not attacking anyone that didn't like it, even I only thought it was 'alright', but the strength of the reaction was so huge and it's hardly the worst videogame ending ever. Which makes it an interesting subject for discussion. And yes, I feel like it's a discussion I can participate in without having watched a specific 40 minute video. Hell, plenty of people are participating here that haven't even played the extended cut and just watched it on YouTube.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    it's hardly the worst videogame ending ever
    That's a bit of wonky logic to use, as if to say "Well there are other worse things, focus on them first!" The fact is, it was called out because millions of people played it and the literally overwhelming majority of them called out BioWare on it and collectively said "What the hell?" Sure, there are worse things out there, but the level of attention this got was certainly appropriate. I'd actually so far as to say that the people who are not put-off by the whole thing haven't actually thought about it comprehensively. A lot of people since the cut have said that if this was the finished product, they'd have been okay with it. Well, maybe...except the cut fixes so few of the actual narrative problems that all it means is that a lot of people are happy with a bit of gloss.

    BioWare keep talking about artistic integrity, but what's scary about that is that they were content with releasing...content that was poor, not just from a subjective stand-point, but objectively. What's scarier than that, is that people are happy with it still failing.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    That's a bit of wonky logic to use, as if to say "Well there are other worse things, focus on them first!" The fact is, it was called out because millions of people played it and the literally overwhelming majority of them called out BioWare on it and collectively said "What the hell?"
    They didn't did then? Literally the overwhelming majority haven't even finished the game yet.

    Sure, there are worse things out there, but the level of attention this got was certainly appropriate. I'd actually so far as to say that the people who are not put-off by the whole thing haven't actually thought about it comprehensively.
    Probably true, I can see the flaws in it, but I can also remember that when I first played it, I was okay with it. It was decent. It certainly annoyed me less than DA2's ending, which I thought was far worse.

  18. #58
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    The thing is, as contrived as DA2's ending was, it made sense. There was foreshadowing of Anders' actions, that Meredith was clearly off her rocker anyhow and that mages can resort to blood magic quite readily. So, even though a lot of people thought it was drastic, the narrative still worked pretty well.

    I don't get your comment regarding 'even finished the game yet' though. Are you referring to people who haven't played the cut? I haven't, but I watched all of the endings satisfied I've seen everything there is to see of narrative importance. The thing is, the fact I can even watch everything and feel that I've got everything out of it instead of needing to properly interact with it says it all.
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  19. #59
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    Man I wish there were accurate figures into how many people didn't like the ending. Ending-haters are convinced that the majority hated it, ending-likers are convinced it was a minority. If we had numbers one way or another, maybe the conflict wouldn't have raged so hot.

  20. #60
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    The whole thing with Dragon Age 2 and Orsino was really ass, especially if you sided with the mages.

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