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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Would limited movements per player limit the spam fest? This way not distracting from the realtime part (not making it turn based) but also keeping a persons click speed out of the equation?

    Say, 1 movement order every 5 seconds. Mess it up? Tough, your opponent out flanked you, or you have to wait to pull your troops back.
    As I recall (not having played) Achron, the time travel RTS has a system where giving an order anywhere outside the present uses a resource. The further back you go, the fewer orders you can give. Units then need to be organised into persistant groups to do much of anything. Since a lot of the game seems to be played in the past, this has the effect you describe, more or less.

    Of course, then the challenge is wrapping your head around the whole giving-orders-in-the-past thing, which judging from the games I've watched is a little more than I can handle.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    I made it to the top league in SC2 during the beta and again after launch, on random race, not memorizing build orders.

    As for APM, I was probably somewhere around 30-40 on average. The execution in SC2 isn't challenging to anyone who plays action games and knows what a hotkey is, at least until you start pushing into the territory of 5-10% best players in the world. People complaining that SC is just about clicking fast are never even close to the point where they would need to do so. Their lack of success is due to not understanding the game and the fundamentals of strategy, and/or inability to direct their focus to where it's needed at a given time.

    The idea that build orders are "lists" that can be executed mechanically well into the game, and memorizing such lists somehow translates to winning, is beginner-level thinking as well. A rigid build order that extends minutes into the game is unusable due to its fragility. The player must adapt to the opponent and the map, the flow of the match, and play to their own strengths while covering their weaknesses. Real BOs are loose frameworks to move within, to mix and match, and to abandon when appropriate.

    The use of known-good build orders is not a crutch, nor does it indicate that the game is light on strategy. A weak player choosing to use a proven solid build order improves all aspects of their game faster, including their strategy. The alternative is reinventing the wheel. Worse, they could get "creative" which is like a blind man throwing paint at a canvas and hoping for the result to be a realistic portrait. Legit creativity in strategy requires you to be able to identify what is actually strong, and a weak, inconsistent player cannot do that. It gets particularly comical when a weak player keeps coming up with weird strategies, keeps losing with them, and yet thinks they are "good at strategy". If only the game wasn't all about APM, they'd surely beat everyone... :-D
    Well luckily I did fine in Starcraft, although I was never a serious player. Most of my gaming was taken up by a flash based battle chess type game multiplayer wise. And SC wise I played mostly custom maps. I never bought game two. The fact that most people blow at Starcraft is not a solid argument for it not being a clickfest. I also had a problem with the obscenely quick matches, its not just apm and build order that are annoying. I am a huge Dominions 3 fan, so the shallow tech tree was a total turn off.

    Do you know why people who complain that Starcraft is a clickfest don't reach the top levels of the game for the most part? Because they dislike the gameplay too much to invest the obscene amount of time required to get there. Funny how that works right? What sort of bizarre masochist would waste thousands of hours becoming a pro SC 2 player just because people who are bad at logic think that that is a requirement to judge the value of the game?

    If I, or anyone else, had to become a top player in every game they wanted to criticize we would never have time to play fun games.

  3. #263
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    @Mohorovicic: I'm sorry, I'm one of those people who do not consider Starcraft to be the be-all-end-all of RTS gaming, nor do I consider their (mis)use of language to be gospel. If Team Liquid and the SC community have reduced the meaning of "macro" to be strictly about the economy, it's their problem, not mine.

    The original and logical definitions of the words would equate macro with strategy and micro with tactics.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by arathain View Post
    As I recall (not having played) Achron, the time travel RTS has a system where giving an order anywhere outside the present uses a resource. The further back you go, the fewer orders you can give. Units then need to be organised into persistant groups to do much of anything. Since a lot of the game seems to be played in the past, this has the effect you describe, more or less.

    Of course, then the challenge is wrapping your head around the whole giving-orders-in-the-past thing, which judging from the games I've watched is a little more than I can handle.
    Fighting in the future gives you chrono energy while fighting in the past costs it. Many of the possible time tricks are mostly curiosities like perma cloning units and so forth. The majority of the time you play only slightly back in the past as opposed to going really far back, and you rarely play very far into the future because its so unstable.

    Achron has some cool strategies though. I remember one game where a losing player ran a strat where he used a special super large unit to steal all the resources boxes of his enemy to cripple his econ. Sadly he ended up losing because the other guy abused time travel and because he made a slight error, but it was perhaps the most awesome thing I've ever seen in a clickfest RTS game, even when you consider that Achron has time travel.

    The game does have various issues related to the art and the pathfinding and the limitations imposed to make time travel function right, and the computer cannot time travel for shit, but its really almost worth it.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    @Mohorovicic: I'm sorry, I'm one of those people who do not consider Starcraft to be the be-all-end-all of RTS gaming, nor do I consider their (mis)use of language to be gospel. If Team Liquid and the SC community have reduced the meaning of "macro" to be strictly about the economy, it's their problem, not mine.

    The original and logical definitions of the words would equate macro with strategy and micro with tactics.
    In Starcraft does micro economics fall under macro? :P

    I'm never gonna get tired of making fun of the SC definition of macro.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkt-zer0 View Post
    Games in general are artificial problems requiring the player's attention. The question you should be asking is what purpose a given mechanic serves. Complaining that an RTS isn't wholly about strategy seems a bit nonsensical to me: that's kind of the point of making an RTS instead of a TBS in the first place. Even then, there's a wide range of skill mixes you can fit within the genre, reducing diversity wouldn't be an improvement imo.
    I must disagree with you there. There's a distinction between a mechanical problem requiring tons of clicks to get done (ie. making your SCVs build things exactly when you have minerals for it and you can't plan it ahead by telling them "when 150, build barracks") and a problem on strategy level requiring player's decision with time pressure. That's the thing which gets me the most when playing SC2, you can get very easily mechanically outplayed because enemy player is way faster than you are and is able to micro at once 4 more bases than you are, meaning he's producing 5 times more marines than you and will simply a-move into your bases and there are no strategy level decisions that will counter that.

    In short, I believe that RTS should be about fast decision making, not fast clicking/hotkeying.

    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    People complaining that SC is just about clicking fast are never even close to the point where they would need to do so. Their lack of success is due to not understanding the game and the fundamentals of strategy
    Alright, here's an example: marine split vs. banelings. It took me crapton of practice to be able to do and without it (fast clicking) my army gets obliterated. If I do it right, my enemy pretty much loses. Success depends on player's agility. Oh, and I'm nowhere near the masters league.

  7. #267
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    I think there's a large element of personal preference here. There's nothing inherently wrong with a game in which execution is challenging- it's as true of Starcraft as it is of rocket jumping in Quake or doing combos in Street Fighter. It can be a good thing, as it allows one to always be able to improve one's game, thus allowing a very high skill ceiling. It's clear that lots of people enjoy that sort of thing, since Starcraft 2 sold well and is widely played.

    I totally understand wanting a game in which one is acting on a tactical rather than a mechanical level. Those are the sorts of games I prefer- I don't own Starcraft 2, and I don't think it looks like something I'll enjoy. Relic's RTSs are much more my thing. I'd like to see such a game really make it into the mainstream gamer's view, and into a legitimate competitive scene. I'm also glad we get the choice of approach we get.

  8. #268
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    Here I thought we were talking about RTSs but apparently, judging from some of the arguments levied, this thread's been hijacked by ersatz DotA fanatics.

    You know who you are.
    Last edited by Nalano; 27-01-2013 at 10:16 PM.
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  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    Do you know why people who complain that Starcraft is a clickfest don't reach the top levels of the game for the most part? Because they dislike the gameplay too much to invest the obscene amount of time required to get there. Funny how that works right? What sort of bizarre masochist would waste thousands of hours becoming a pro SC 2 player just because people who are bad at logic think that that is a requirement to judge the value of the game?

    If I, or anyone else, had to become a top player in every game they wanted to criticize we would never have time to play fun games.
    I did not say you have to become a top player to criticize a game. Rather, I wanted to point out that some of your criticism was misplaced. We were talking somewhat past each other, though. I thought you were talking about Starcraft the franchise, while you were talking about Starcraft the game. The part of my reply that concerned execution requirements only addressed SC2. Brood War had absolutely brutal execution barriers if you wanted to play it seriously and get to the meat of the game. I love that game, but I never ventured into competitive 1v1 precisely because I knew the barrier was so high and I would have needed constant practice of the micro/macro mechanics just to be able to have fun in the real matches and get deeper into the strategy. SC2 totally changes that. You only need a fraction of that execution to play SC2 at an equivalent level.
    Last edited by victory; 28-01-2013 at 01:01 AM.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    I did not say you have to become a top player to criticize a game. Rather, I wanted to point out that some of your criticism was misplaced. We were talking somewhat past each other, though. I thought you were talking about Starcraft the franchise, while you were talking about Starcraft the game. The part of my reply that concerned execution requirements only addressed SC2. Brood War had absolutely brutal execution barriers if you wanted to play it seriously and get to the meat of the game. I love that game, but I never ventured into competitive 1v1 precisely because I knew the barrier was so high and I would have needed constant practice of the micro/macro mechanics just to be able to have fun in the real matches and get deeper into the strategy. SC2 totally changes that. You only need a fraction of that execution to play SC2 at an equivalent level.
    True, but its still much higher than necessary. The problem is that certain kinds of RTS dominate the industry and publishers are too afraid to diversify because they are obsessed with the Starcraft audience and its size. This isn't as bad as MMOs but its still so annoying.

  11. #271
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    if traditional RTS dominates the industry, then why is there only a single active game ?

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by biz View Post
    if traditional RTS dominates the industry, then why is there only a single active game ?
    There are many active games. One has been elevated much higher due to South Korea's obsession with it. But other games are quite similar and follow a certain method and have decent player bases. Even DOTA is an offshoot of SC and its one of the most popular games out there.

  13. #273
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    There are many active games. One has been elevated much higher due to South Korea's obsession with it. But other games are quite similar and follow a certain method and have decent player bases. Even DOTA is an offshoot of SC and its one of the most popular games out there.
    Seriously? You are trying to say that there are active RTS games and you need to pull DOTA as your only​ example? I think that says enough.
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  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    Seriously? You are trying to say that there are active RTS games and you need to pull DOTA as your only​ example? I think that says enough.
    I was pointing to Dota as an example of the power of Starcraft. Starcraft spawned a whole genre thats more popular than all RTS games combined. And WoW spawned the most popular MMO which also dominates its industry.

    I wasn't naming any examples of other popular RTS games. Sorry you are incapable of reading comprehension.

  15. #275
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    it's a serious question?

    where are the other active games?

    i mean traditional RTS, not some moba/RTT stuff

    like there's sc2 and aoe2 (which barely counts as active) and nothing else

  16. #276
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    I enjoyed my last root canal more than I enjoyed the last game of Starcraft 2 that I played, which involved me being zerged before I could lock my base in by some self-gratifying ponce who was either jacked into the game through the matrix or had struck some faustian bargain to put zerglings on the map before he put down a spawning pool.

    Sadly the same ponce who was friends with my friends all though I'd never be friends with this ball-slapping nag. Had me learn DotA2 in quite the same manner of the SC2 game described above. (I.E. I'm not gonna teach you anything, I'm just gonna gank you 20 times, teabag your corpse and guffaw into the mic.) But my taste for MOBAs had already been soured by LoL which is entirely populated by jackasses like him.

    I'm not going to blame this one asshole for my disdain of RPS games, although he seems like the kind of dickhead who is probably stalking me right now. My problem with games like Starcraft, LoL and DotA2 is that the barrier for entry is only slightly higher than the fucking Sears Tower. It seems like if you want to play these games, it's almost required that you be born with the inherent skill sets to play these games at top level and the knowledge to apply them at the same. Otherwise, you're in for many games where you will be steamrolled within moments and sent a condescending message about how bad you are. Or if you're playing a MOBA, you're ears will be penetrated with the tongue of Satan. As a piss-dribbling rage-aholic, spams the mic with demands that you "FUCKING UNINSTALL NOOB!" along with plenty of suggestions that you sexually penetrate your mother and/or pass away as the result of an out of control inferno.

    The really sad part is, I really like these games. The concepts at least. But the utter feeling of shit that comes with that kind of mistreatment is not befitting the only person on the planet who has beaten Chakan: The Forever Man, on a true cartridge without save-states or cheat devices.

    Yeah, I don't have photographic evidence of that. I don't know too many people who recorded this kind of accomplishment in the 90s on the off-chance that a worldwide amateur video distribution method would appear and it would lead to every single person demanding photographic evidence of every little thing you've done in order to legitimize your claim.

    So feel free to tell me I'm full of shit, most people do.

  17. #277
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    I was pointing to Dota as an example of the power of Starcraft. Starcraft spawned a whole genre thats more popular than all RTS games combined. And WoW spawned the most popular MMO which also dominates its industry.

    I wasn't naming any examples of other popular RTS games. Sorry you are incapable of reading comprehension.
    Maybe you should focus less on insults and more on naming those active rts games you spoke of.

    And Starcraft didn't spawn DOTA. DOTA spawned DOTA. And the platform was Warcraft 3, not Starcraft.
    Last edited by jnx; 28-01-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tres View Post
    Alright, here's an example: marine split vs. banelings. It took me crapton of practice to be able to do and without it (fast clicking) my army gets obliterated. If I do it right, my enemy pretty much loses. Success depends on player's agility. Oh, and I'm nowhere near the masters league.
    I did not say that pure execution ability is useless; obviously it's not. Particularly in a situation like that, microing really well or really poorly can decide that match for you. But whether you can or cannot split marines instantly does not decide whether you are a decent or a weak player, or whether you are in silver league or platinum league, or whether you can play the game up to a decently high level and enjoy it. If you cannot split on reaction, you can pre-split your marines whenever they are standing around somewhere near the front line, or you can use another strategy that does not rely so heavily on difficult micro. It is just not that important in the grand scheme of things.

    What I was talking about was when some wood leaguer announces that SC2 sucks because it's just about clicking fast. They may have watched pros play and have gotten the idea that their own lack of success is due to lacking the mechanical execution ability the pros have, but in truth they are failing on everything else, and they couldn't even use the mechanical ability if they had it because they can't think fast enough. It's as if a normal height dude who sucks horribly at basketball in every way was claiming that basketball is just about being tall. It may be true that he can't get into the NBA with his height, but it doesn't mean he can't play and enjoy the game and become better than 95% of the players out there.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by biz View Post
    it's a serious question?

    where are the other active games?

    i mean traditional RTS, not some moba/RTT stuff

    like there's sc2 and aoe2 (which barely counts as active) and nothing else


    Well SupCom is still played by thousands online,same with CoH,then there is Men Of War and others.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    Maybe you should focus less on insults and more on naming those active rts games you spoke of.

    And Starcraft didn't spawn DOTA. DOTA spawned DOTA. And the platform was Warcraft 3, not Starcraft.
    They insulted me first. So get bent.

    And actually Starcraft spawned Dota. It migrated to Warcraft 3 later for various reasons. Well it might be more accurate to say that Starcraft spawned the gameplay concepts that became super popular later in DOTA. There were MOBA style games on Starcraft even before WC3 was released. I'm not trying to be a hipster, I was playing the early versions of the game style that became DOTA on SC custom maps in the early 2000s, so when I saw DOTA originally that's what I was reminded of. Oh that game is like such and such map.

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