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  1. #21
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    The games have become too much about micro and not enough about scrapping.

    I like microing in DOW2, getting my space biff mans in the best positions and occaisionally pointing where somebody throws a grenade, but I hate the starcraft 2 style of microing of constantly having to click because your units are too herp a derp to use their abilities.

    Starcraft 2 was made to be played by the people who developed pro gaming from Starcraft 1, but to me that feels like the 'wrong' way to play the game? Ya getting me?

    Even the whole scouting with your harvesters feels like bullshit to me.

    (New) Blizzard games always come down to math now it seems and it just doesn't serve me as a 'game.'

    Rather than knowing a unit's DPS and if i can cancel an animation, I'd rather be making intelligent use of my MLRS artillery thats hotkeyed to 2 and then press 3 then D to see all my grenadiers pile out my APCs but whats that? A flame tank has set an explosive chain reaction off and that has wiped out half my force...

    But ahh Dark Reign, Warzone 2100, Total Annihilation, C&C... what corkers.

  2. #22
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    Rise of nations. I really miss that game, it was awesome. I remember getting it years ago, and I was so bad at it that I couldn't win a game - I nearly took it back, but laziness saved me. I let it fester in my drawer full of games for about 6 months, and on a whim installed it again. And it all clicked. I COULD SEE... EVERYTHING...

    And it became the best RTS I've ever played, really. I miss RTS games like that. A little more sophistication than the mammoth tank push, but with an excellent tug-of-war rhythm (because of the genius of indestructable city hubs) that just hasn't been replicated well. A real shame.

  3. #23
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    Just going to throw Age of Empires in here. Also Empire Earth. I'd love to have those redone with better UI and stuff..

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Rise of nations. I really miss that game, it was awesome. I remember getting it years ago, and I was so bad at it that I couldn't win a game - I nearly took it back, but laziness saved me. I let it fester in my drawer full of games for about 6 months, and on a whim installed it again. And it all clicked. I COULD SEE... EVERYTHING...

    And it became the best RTS I've ever played, really. I miss RTS games like that. A little more sophistication than the mammoth tank push, but with an excellent tug-of-war rhythm (because of the genius of indestructable city hubs) that just hasn't been replicated well. A real shame.
    It actually runs fine on modern OS's (Win 7 64 bit, for example) and because the art is 2D it's held up pretty well graphically, as well. I certainly wish they'd have made another one, of course, but it's still pretty great.

  5. #25
    Lesser Hivemind Node DevinSmoth's Avatar
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    I actually just bought Rise of Legends on a disc at Walmart like a day ago. ;P Looks really good on Windows 7

  6. #26
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    Yes, Rise of Nations plays perfectly fine on modern OSs. You can even tweak the ini files to make it play nice with widescreen resolutions.

    In fact, I've played a few rounds of it with a mate quite recently and it is still every bit as wonderful as it was back when it was released. The last game we played ended with some truly epic all out nuclear war, with us both developing nukes near as damn it at the same time. A tense cold war developed between us, neither wanting to launch the first missile, as retaliation was inevitable. Finally, I caved and obliterated most of his army with a well placed nuke. As I feared, two nukes instantly came heading straight for my cities wiping out a large proportion of my economy. From here to the end of the game, it was just none stop attacking and counter-attacking, with a few nukes thrown in for good measure.

    I really can't recommend Rise of Nations enough and wish they would release a digital version of it. It seems like a perfect candidate for GoG.

    Never did play Rise of Legends. I know the look of the game is completely different, but how much of the gameplay was carried over?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Swayze View Post
    I like microing in DOW2, getting my space biff mans in the best positions and occaisionally pointing where somebody throws a grenade, but I hate the starcraft 2 style of microing of constantly having to click because your units are too herp a derp to use their abilities.
    I still don't get it. If automation and spectacle is what you want, that's exactly the direction CoH and DoW are going in. Seems like you'd be covered, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Swayze View Post
    Rather than knowing a unit's DPS and if i can cancel an animation, I'd rather be making intelligent use of my MLRS artillery thats hotkeyed to 2 and then press 3 then D to see all my grenadiers pile out my APCs but whats that? A flame tank has set an explosive chain reaction off and that has wiped out half my force...
    I'd say your issue is with competitive gaming in general, then. That implies finding and exploiting every advantage you can get. So not only will you need to make intelligent use of your MLRS artillery, but also know a unit's DPS and if you can cancel an animation and whatnot. Eventually, anyway - this varies with skill level, obviously.
    Anyway, I didn't really get the impression that that's the sort of stuff the single player campaign was designed around, either.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Swayze View Post
    Does anybody else miss the build a base grab some resources tank mulch kind of games that used to dominate RTS and PC gaming?
    Yes. Very much so. But at the same time I don't want games like CoH to disappear either because I like the ebb and flow style of gameplay that comes with control points as well. I just want stuff like SC2, where it's all about APM and "he who builds first wins," to die and I want the old days of SC1, before the Koreans took over, to come back. Let me send a few harassing parties at your base, and then smack you in the face with 100 hydralisks that tear through everything under the sun on their own. Or 5 nukes being dropped at once. Or an armada of carriers wrecking shit.

    I was playing some SC2 with a buddy of mine a while back and doing the classic SC1 Terran base defenses of bunkers on the ramps, tanks behind, and turrets on the sides. He was amazed that I was playing so old-school and told me he hadn't seen anyone build a base like mine in 10 years. Then I looked at his base and his "base" was two barracks on the ramp, an engineering bay, and then a blob of marines with a couple marauders. Sure, he may have been able to tech and harass faster than I did, but I fended off attacks better than he did. Of course, once it got into the later stages of the game he dominated because he was so heavily microing his stuff while I spent my time just sending deathblobs around and ensuring that I had proper reinforcements for when the first deathblob died.

    I suppose it just comes down to the fact that I don't want to have to babysit everything in order to win a fight. I want the unit AI to actually be worth half a damn, and I'd like more auto-cast type stuff to be available. Even games like CoH could benefit from that. For instance, I want to be able to set something like the American rifleman squad's sticky bombs to be an auto-cast that gets used any time they're fighting a vehicle and I have the required 75 munitions for it. And I want stuff like cover mechanics and units that actually take advantage of that cover on their own. CoH and DoW do that, but I want more games to do it. I'd also like to see more games have actual morale for units the way that the Total War series does. If you start losing too many units in a group the remainder will automatically retreat until either they return to base or something happens that raises morale(like reinforcements or an officer arriving). In other words, I want the management of unit groups to matter more rather than the micromanagement of individual units in that group.

    ...Metal Fatigue's...
    Holy damnit Christmas! I thought that I was the only person on the planet that knew that game existed! I remember getting a demo of it in my dad's copy of Computer Gaming World(when it was still good) and playing the absolute shit out of it because a) GIANT MECHAS!, b) the salvaging/researching bit was fucking awesome, and c) did I mention the GIANT MECHAS? Oh, and the 3 layer combat was pretty sweet too, though you couldn't send your giant mechas underground, from what I remember. I tried saving up money for it, and eventually got the $50 or whatever that new games cost back then, and I remember going to the local Electronics Boutique and asking if they had it only to get blank stares from the otherwise knowledgeable staff there(this was before GameStop took over and when they still sold parts as well as software). When I discovered torrents years later I managed to snag a copy with high hopes, but it wasn't functional so all it did was make me want the game even more. And I still can't find anywhere to buy it. Not even Amazon has it. If you know where I can snag a copy at a reasonable price(max of about $30 USD) please, please, please let me know. Just replace "spare change" in this vid with "Metal Fatigue.
    "

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkt-zer0 View Post
    I'd say your issue is with competitive gaming in general
    Possibly. But pro gamers play RTS games in ways they are not meant to be played, imo.

  10. #30
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    You never got to play Metal Fatigue? I has a sad for you.

    I enjoyed it massively at the time but I can't vouch for how well it would hold up now. It was actually quite difficult and the three layers system worked surprisingly well. The robot biffing was excellent. You could take the arms off fallen enemies and equip them to your own mechs :D

    Couldn't tell you where to find a copy though as I'm in the UK.

    I'm rifling through some abandonware sites now though, just trying to find one you dont have to sign in to >:|

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Company of Heroes 2!!!

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I would never suggest you type "Metal Fatigue torrent" into google as that would be immoral, and wrong.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Swayze View Post
    You never got to play Metal Fatigue? I has a sad for you.

    I enjoyed it massively at the time but I can't vouch for how well it would hold up now. It was actually quite difficult and the three layers system worked surprisingly well. The robot biffing was excellent. You could take the arms off fallen enemies and equip them to your own mechs :D

    Couldn't tell you where to find a copy though as I'm in the UK.

    I'm rifling through some abandonware sites now though, just trying to find one you dont have to sign in to >:|
    Did Metal Fatigue have multiplayer at all? It was one of those games that was so understated and undersold here in the States that it never got much more than a passing mention in any of the gaming rags of the time. Even the issue of CGW that had the demo of it included didn't give much of a rundown. If it does have multiplayer, specifically LAN play(which it should given the time it came out), and somehow I'm able to get my hands on a working copy then we'll have to Hamachi it up. Gonna unleash my missile-katana mechs all over the planet.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    I don't mind that at all,those older C&C style games can't compare to today's RTS games.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I would never suggest you type "Metal Fatigue torrent" into google as that would be immoral, and wrong.
    I did that years ago and the copy I got didn't work. But now it appears as though maybe, possibly, not-quite-guaranteed, somehow I may be able to get a working copy.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Voon's Avatar
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    Won't say they're exactly dead, just... dormant. Is that the word I'm looking for? I mean, the genre never really goes beyond 1000 orders per minute and maek mani tanks aside from a few games like Homeworld or the other non-traditional RTS out there. And the ones that do, while critically accalimed, didn't really change anything for the genre. Heck, I thought the traditional RTS + Hero thing was brilliant but it didn't spread, somehow. Sad.
    Art blog here.

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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Swayze View Post
    Possibly. But pro gamers play RTS games in ways they are not meant to be played, imo.
    "Taking every possible advantage" means quite the opposite. Everything within the game's rules is fair. I mean, that's what rules are. Also, in this day and age, the game could be easily patched if people were doing things they were not meant to.

    Quote Originally Posted by unruly View Post
    He was amazed that I was playing so old-school and told me he hadn't seen anyone build a base like mine in 10 years.
    Back when I played SC2 more regularly, I saw quite a few players like that on B.net, actually. Mostly in the lower leagues, though. Turtling on one base won't last you through the lategame, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by unruly View Post
    I suppose it just comes down to the fact that I don't want to have to babysit everything in order to win a fight.
    Actually, a common piece of advice for beginners is to NEVER WATCH FIGHTS. That is, focus on everything other than microing your units. Only once you have solid fundamentals should you invest in microing.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandelay View Post
    Never did play Rise of Legends. I know the look of the game is completely different, but how much of the gameplay was carried over?
    Everything except the ages.
    I'm still angry over this Gamespot review quote: This wacky mish-mash of real history, Dungeons & Dragons, and Chariots of the Gods is damn hard to warm up to. Each of the civilizations is so offbeat that there are no reference points, no similarities to RTS conventions that you can latch onto and use to dip a toe into the weirdness.

  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    I think that they are a good example of a success due to the limitation of the medium at the time. When these limitations were essentially surpassed-unit count, graphics, physics-as a package the RTS thing didn’t make sense any more.

    The elegance and genius of the way an RTS plays is all about the illusion of scale and control, I think. If the experience ever ‘feels’ too unwieldy to control in “real time” it stops being an enjoyable RTS and becomes something else, ala Cossacks. This in turn throws up a different problem, such as how to go about simulating large battles convincingly, and likewise calls for a different approach, ala Shogun, something which was impossible when Age of Kings came out but was quite doable a few years later.
    A focus on the real time tactical elements and micro management on the other, such as in Company of Heroes, again something which would have been impossible a few years earlier due to physics and processing limitations likewise questions the need for a base building element. It just seems artificial and distracts from the good stuff. And again if you like base building there are dedicated building sims and tower defence games which give you the distilled elements of that in their purest form.

    Basically I think most people prefer a master of one trade rather than a jack of all, and an RTS would be the definition of that. How would you go about making a modern RTS that wasn’t “retro”-in which case why play it over any of the proven great RTS games of the past?, let alone spend money on it- or without focusing on all of the diverse elements to the degree that the balance and harmony between controlling the three is lost, turning it into something else again and thereby missing the whole point?

  20. #40
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    Patrick Swayze, have you played Sins of A Solar Empire: Rebellion? It's is a great successor to Rise of Nations if you're OK with it being in space.

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