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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Wut... wait.. youv'e confuses me now.

    I was stating simply and only that swearing is fine sometimes, and that if my son swore at school he would get in trouble... That was it, I feel like you are having this conversation by yourself.
    Ah, you're saying that the faculty would get your son in trouble, not that the faculty would themselves get in trouble.

    But we're not in school now, are we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy View Post
    How about if I said you're just acting like a total 'black person'. And by that I mean 'rubbish'. And by that I seem to be implying that black people are rubbish. Whoops! Or is it whoops?
    Both Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle dropped making jokes that used the word "nigger" in their acts, not because their intended audience didn't completely understand what they were trying to say, but because they had attracted an unintended audience. Dave Chappelle basically disappeared because he hated the sorts of white people who would react to his self-deprecating humor (not that he didn't simply do with the Black crowd what Jewish comedians did on the Borscht Belt) by twisting him into a self-hating Black man; a walking caricature.

    I don't know you from Adam, but I'm willing to bet that if you used "nigger" in a way that was flippant or casual, alarm bells would ring in my mind, just as I don't assume everybody who uses "nigger" when I'm playing BF3 are themselves Black in real life. But then, the gaming crowd I play with tends to be the most monolithic demographic I have the misfortune of associating with, they being overwhelmingly white, suburban and male. I would take umbrage with your use of that word just as women would take umbrage at the gaming crowd's use of "rape."

    But it's not the word, like I said. It's the attitude behind it. I cannot assume yours is pure.
    Last edited by Nalano; 11-07-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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  2. #22
    Obscure Node Fishy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    But it's not the word, like I said. It's the attitude behind it. I cannot assume yours is pure.
    Exactly. I think we're on the same page. We're not talking about the language we use in our own homes. We're talking about the language we use in the most public of forums. Part of the problem though is that there are a lot of people who would use the word 'nigger' and mean something totally horrible with it.

    If all the nice people are using it ironically, it empowers those who use it hatefully. And it especially dis-empowers those who are branded with it.

    I'm not saying that these words should be removed from the English language, I'm just saying that there are a lot of places where they are not suitable. I myself grew up using the word 'gay' just to mean something bad. I was never homophobic at all, but it was only when a number of my friends came out to me that I realised I had to stop using it in that sense. Not because they thought I was a homophobe, but because homophobes would hear me and think that it was fine to take the piss out of gay people.

    Rape is such a common, but unspoken, horror. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't bandy about the term needlessly. Just like racial or homophobic slurs.

    Entering the words and phrases into common usage does have an impact on people's understanding of the issues involved. I'd love to think that 4chan are all joking when they spout the word 'nigger', but I'm pretty sure a lot of them aren't, and that's why I'll never use that word there. And it terrifies me that all those people who use the word seriously have a home full of like minded people (or at least people who sound like them).

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy View Post
    If all the nice people are using it ironically, it empowers those who use it hatefully.
    You're misusing the term "ironically." You mean "ignorantly."

    You can't ban the use of the term ironically. But it's all about making sure there's an understanding between the audience and the speaker. I can say things to my students that other teachers can't, by dint of who we are.

    And rape at this time is not an "unspoken" horror. It's a quite often spoken horror, and while that won't stop idiots from using it just like idiots use the term "gay" to mean "bad," it doesn't mean that we all have to clutch our purses and whine every time somebody says the word.
    Last edited by Nalano; 11-07-2012 at 11:05 PM.
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  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbriandamage View Post
    Second, replace the word "rape" with any other antisocial behaviour like "kill". To kill is no less deplorable than to rape, but how many times in a day do you hear someone shrug off a potentially threatening, incriminating sentence like "I'm gonna kill that guy for making me spill my coffee." Would it be prudent to suppress our speech so as not to offend anyone that has suffered any injustice? Where do we draw the line?
    If someone who wasn't a friend said they'd kill me for spilling coffee I'd think they were overly aggressive. Kill does have different connotations than rape though, not least that we're used to using the word in contexts that have nothing to do with murder. There are plenty of situations where we consider taking a life to be a legitimate thing to do; in self defence, in war, killing animals for food, hunting, swatting flies, etc. For rape on the other hand I can't think of a single situation where it wouldn't be a terrible thing to do.

    I'm not personally bothered by rape jokes or "getting raped" being thrown around as a substitute for losing, but it does often seem an excessively crude and dumb way to express oneself and I can see perfectly legitimate reasons for why people don't like it. It's worth remembering that people can't help getting hurt or offended; they're emotional reactions and can't be "wrong". While that of course doesn't mean that anyone has an absolute right to not be offended it does mean you might want to put a little thought into what you say and how you say it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    Personally, I don't find the lighthearted use of rape offensive. Yes, it is a deplorable crime to do so something like this but that doesn't make it any worse than non-penetrative sexual abuse, domestic violence or murder.
    Except a lot of the stigma is still attached to the notion of rape. The fact that it might not be more physically traumatic to be raped than getting a punch in the face doesn't change the fact that it (usually) is far worse on an emotional and social level. You can argue that it shouldn't be of course, but shouldn't doesn't make isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by db1331 View Post
    Something I don't understand about rapists is, why don't they ever ask first? You always hear about someone jumping out from behind a car, or pulling a gun. Even if you only have a 1% chance that she will say yes, it only takes a couple seconds, and if you have already made up your mind to rape someone, you literally have nothing to lose. If you're not a rapist and you ask a girl if she wants to hook up, you can be rejected, and then you are going home alone. But if you're a rapist, this is literally the worst way the conversation can go:

    "Want to have sex?"
    "Ew, no!"
    "Too bad."
    I assume this is meant in jest, but just in case it isn't: In most rape cases the rapist knows the victim. People being raped by complete strangers is relatively rare.

  5. #25
    Obscure Node Fishy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    You're misusing the term "ironically." You mean "ignorantly."

    You can't ban the use of the term ironically. But it's all about making sure there's an understanding between the audience and the speaker. I can say things to my students that other teachers can't, by dint of who we are.

    And rape at this time is not an "unspoken" horror. It's a quite often spoken horror, and while that won't stop idiots from using it just like idiots use the term "gay" to mean "bad," it doesn't mean that we all have to clutch our purses and whine every time somebody says it.
    Ok, yeah, I think we are basically agreeing here.

    I did mean "ironically" but I get what you mean, and I don't think it's fair to characterise someone who speaks out against homophobic slurs as 'whining' (I try to always call someone out on it if they say it to my face, just like if they said 'nigger', and I think that's important), but apart from that I think we're saying the same thing.

    And I applaud you for being informed about rape, but I still think most people drastically underestimate it's virulence.

    To go back to OPs post: The reason people treat rape jokes as taboo is because actually they don't. They just treat people who throw the term around in a light-heatred way with no comic value as idiots.

    Anyway, it's always nice to end a discussion on realising you agree, so on that note, I'm off to bed!

    ~Fishy

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I assume this is meant in jest, but just in case it isn't: In most rape cases the rapist knows the victim. People being raped by complete strangers is relatively rare.
    Way to be a wet blanket.

    ...No offense to blankets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy View Post
    To go back to OPs post: The reason people treat rape jokes as taboo is because actually they don't. They just treat people who throw the term around in a light-heatred way with no comic value as idiots.
    Comedy is in the eye of the beholder. Heliocentric said he refuses to associate with anybody who makes a blue joke. I don't associate with people who are inclined to give me a lecture every time I make a blue joke. He's hung up on the words, and I give short shrift to prudes.
    Last edited by Nalano; 11-07-2012 at 11:22 PM.
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  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    I honestly wouldn't be surprised given some of the posts floating around here lately.

  8. #28
    Lesser Hivemind Node fiddlesticks's Avatar
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    I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Penny Arcade Dickwolves controversy, but if you aren't, I strongly suggest checking out this link which presents the whole story in an unbiased manner. It all started when a blogger on Shakesville criticized Penny Arcade for using rape in a humorous manner in one of their comic strips and turned really nasty further down the road. It's a fairly lenghty read, but it's an interesting look at how the subject of rape is perceived by different people and how it's apparently impossible to discuss the issue in a civilized manner.
    Last edited by fiddlesticks; 11-07-2012 at 11:52 PM.

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlesticks View Post
    I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Penny Arcade Dickwolves controversy, but if you aren't, I strongly suggest checking out this link which presents the whole story in an unbiased manner. It all started when a blogger on Shakesville criticized Penny Arcade for using rape in a humorous manner in one of their comic strips and turned really nasty further down the road. It's a fairly lenghty read, but it's an interesting look at how the subject of rape is perceived by different people and how it's apparently impossible to discuss the issue in a civilized manner.
    I remember that whole debacle, and what I got from it is that people will find offense if they look for it hard enough. To quote Gabe,

    "I just don’t understand that. Did the comics about bestiality, suicide, murder, pedophilia, and torture not bother them? Or how about the fruit fucker? I mean, we have a character who is a literal rapist. What comic strip have they been reading all these years?"
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  10. #30
    Lesser Hivemind Node Keep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    There is no subject that cannot be joked about. In fact, humor is a common way to deal with trauma.

    But where the disconnect comes from is when the rapport between the joker and the jokee is cut: i.e. if the jokee doesn't think they're on the same page as the joker. We trust the comedian is a decent person, who is giving us social commentary in a format that takes the edge off. If we cannot assume the comedian is a decent person, it ceases being funny and starts being cruel.
    I'll nod in agreement to all this. Bang on.

    My own pondering has suggested to me it's about inclusive/exclusiveness. If you *feel* the comedian is excluding you (or a person/people you care about) it's not funny. If you feel they're including you it's ok.

    Also, what verifies that feeling is often not so much the joke but the reaction. A comedian who apologises after someone acts offended inadvertently proves their intention of inclusiveness. A comedian who doubles down or says "You don't get it" or whatever demonstrates an intention of exclusiveness.

    (Hence why dickwolves became such a scandal. The joke itself? Meh. The reaction? Yikes.)
    Free speech don't mean unchallengeable speech.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Definition for blue joke:
    Web definitions:
    dirty joke: an indelicate joke.
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
    Hey, i never said that!
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  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    I don't know, sometimes "rape" is the appropriate term to use when describing how bad someone got destroyed in a PVP game. I feel like I'm going to end up on the wrong side of this thread just as I did in the "zomg EVERYTHING is offensive to women!" thread.

    There is a time and place for everything in my eyes. I don't go around in public servers screaming "YOU JUST RAPED SON" in text or voice chat, but when I am playing a game with friends on ventrilo I will say things like "Holy fuck, I just got raped" or "wow that guy got raped". I know none of my friends are offended by it and as I said earlier I feel like the term is actually appropriate at times for describing what happened on screen.

    Back when I was still playing WoW this term was thrown around a lot on vent during our guild PVP sessions. Apparently this offended some people in the guild and one of my fellow officers addressed it by saying "rape is not a synonym for victory". This became a huge joke in the guild with people intentionally saying "raped" to setup someone else saying "rape is not a synonym for victory" sarcastically. There is no real point to that story.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wolfenswan's Avatar
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    sometimes "rape" is the appropriate term to use when describing how bad someone got destroyed in a PVP game
    and why is that?

  14. #34
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    Because it's funny?



    (sarcasm)

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfenswan View Post
    and why is that?
    If you're in a PvP game, and you hack the other person's computer and take control of it, and make their character do things they don't want it to do, then the person on the other end could feasibly feel violated by that. In that case, it could be appropriate to to use 'rape' figuratively.

    Or maybe if the other player is drunk and hardly able to play and you beat him when you wouldn't otherwise be able to, that could be seen as 'rape'.

    Those are the only ones I can think of.

    I do get why people use it to mean 'really strong victory', as they're equating it with nasty, violent rape. That, frankly, just demonstrates' the users lack of understanding of what most rape actually is.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    And rape at this time is not an "unspoken" horror. It's a quite often spoken horror, and while that won't stop idiots from using it just like idiots use the term "gay" to mean "bad," it doesn't mean that we all have to clutch our purses and whine every time somebody says the word.
    I'm liking this post ban Nalano more and more.

    I tend to think of the word in terms of it being an unwarranted assault that denigrates the victim (not necessarily in a sexual way). I don't use it (afaik) and I don't trade in it, but I recognize what it means in a broader sense. I never really got the whole dickwolves blowup tbh (admittedly I'm only familiar with the beginning parts..not the spiral of accusation/counter accusation etc, etc) . It seemed to me that the whole point about the penny arcade cartoon was about was highlighting player indifference to the storyline 'suffering' of NPCs in games. I don't think it was devaluing rape as an grossly offensive action at all.
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  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape

    Please check numbers 4, 7, and 8.

    It may not be deemed acceptable in certain circles, but it's definitely an appropriate word to use from a vocabulary stand point.





  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post

    noun a plant, Brassica napus, of the mustard family, whose leaves are used for food for hogs, sheep, etc., and whose seeds yield rape oil.

    Haha.

  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    [/LEFT]
    noun a plant, Brassica napus, of the mustard family, whose leaves are used for food for hogs, sheep, etc., and whose seeds yield rape oil.

    Haha.

    Haha. "Time to bust out me ole rape oil"

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    If someone who wasn't a friend said they'd kill me for spilling coffee I'd think they were overly aggressive. Kill does have different connotations than rape though, not least that we're used to using the word in contexts that have nothing to do with murder. There are plenty of situations where we consider taking a life to be a legitimate thing to do; in self defence, in war, killing animals for food, hunting, swatting flies, etc. For rape on the other hand I can't think of a single situation where it wouldn't be a terrible thing to do.
    Sure, but my point is that the word "kill" is so overused and diluted that even children use it casually without ever meaning for a second that they would actually kill someone. I argue that the vast majority of people use this term flippantly without anyone considering them to be overly aggressive - it's just become a turn of phrase.

    That's my take on this situation. Kill, rape, destroy, they're all used as throwaway exaggerations to indicate one side of a binary situation (win versus lose, for example). Someone who had been raped, or whose father had been killed, for example, might see this differently than I do.

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