Snipers and Spys (and their equivalents) ruin multiplayer games. Discuss

[frosty2oo2]

battlefield bad company 2 had the best anti sniper solution in the form of the vastly overpowered carl gustav (tho i hear they tweaked the damage/splash damage it deals a couple of months after launch) In hardcore matches it delivered a one shot kill that you didnt even have to hit the target with (I went for extra rockets & increased exsplosive radius or there abouts) you cant carry many rockets but np just hug someone that drops ammo, it was amazing fun making the transition from CoD's hard indestructable walls to BFBC2's err... very destructable walls & it seemed a lot of players were yet to learn the lesson that what they thought was cover was infact just stuff that would soon become sharpnel (& blocking your LOS) & I was an eager teacher.


tho I guess I just became a new sort of sniper

[gwathdring]

Also people tend to go into Panic mode when under the high constant damage of the flame-thrower. Heavies have the slow spin-up time, the loud vocalizations, and the slow movement speed so it's harder to get dangerously surprised by a heavy. Pyros can come out of no where and leave you feeling pressured and under the gun.

OH SHIT I'M ON FIRE, OH SHIT SO IS EVERYONE ELSE, GOD-DAMNIT FOCUS! Crap. Well, that sucked. Pyros suck!

[Hypernetic]

battlefield bad company 2 had the best anti sniper solution in the form of the vastly overpowered carl gustav (tho i hear they tweaked the damage/splash damage it deals a couple of months after launch) In hardcore matches it delivered a one shot kill that you didnt even have to hit the target with (I went for extra rockets & increased exsplosive radius or there abouts) you cant carry many rockets but np just hug someone that drops ammo, it was amazing fun making the transition from CoD's hard indestructable walls to BFBC2's err... very destructable walls & it seemed a lot of players were yet to learn the lesson that what they thought was cover was infact just stuff that would soon become sharpnel (& blocking your LOS) & I was an eager teacher.


tho I guess I just became a new sort of sniper

Carl Gustav was the worst thing in that game. It was an anti EVERYTHING weapon, it was stupid.

[soldant]

Yes, people get mad when they die to a "cheap death". Pyros, spies, and snipers are all "cheap" in that regards. Snipers and spies because of one hit kills and pyros because of after burn.

I don't know why though because they're all valid methods. The other guy did better than you, too bad. For all the people saying that Spies and Snipers and Pyros are useless, it's a wonder that they ever kill anybody... and if they're killing somebody, they're putting them back into the spawn queue and it's one less person in the field.

Sometimes it seems like people define a weapon or class as "cheap" or "overpowered" if they can't defeat it when playing as any class with any other weapon. It's different from a game-breaking weapon or class which has no hard counters at all. Since when were FPS games scored based on finesse and honour?

[Boris]

You know Warlocks have other CC besides fear right?

Really? That's your big response? Why don't you just admit it, Rogue vs Warlock is so lopsided it's not even funny.

As Affliction you get Howl of Terror, which is another fear but shorter, so it's useless. And every lock has Death Coil, which is fine and dandy, but it's on a 2 minute cooldown. Destruction gets Shadowfury, a short stun. I wish Shadowfury was 6 seconds like a 5point Kidney Shot. Hell, I'd settle for the 4 seconds on Cheap Shot.

Usually you have a Felhunter out, which can silence and dispel, which is not useful against a Rogue. Then you might have a Voidwalker out (no CC, stationary stealth detection). If you're lucky, you might have popped in a Succubus because you knew a Rogue was coming, so you can use Seduce. But you knew I knew that, because I said so in an earlier post.

They didn't care or were unable to balance this situation. They also left stupid warlock mechanics go unfixed for ages (you can't Conflagrate directly after casting Immolate, you need to wait for a bit for the UI or server to pick up on the fact that your target is on fire, for example. It's a bug, they said, it will be fixed some day they said). Hell, it might still not be fixed, but I can't be bothered to ask. Being on the receiving end of such a "service", I decided that it wasn't worth my money any more.

[Subatomic]

You're missing the main point. WoW's player vs player combat was never and will never be balanced around 1vs1 combat. It's not even really balanced for 2vs2 combat, as the removal of 2v2 arena as the top-rated arena format shows.
If you're in a BG and face off against a rogue alone you have to ask yourself why you're running around without a teammate (and also why the rogue is running around without a teammate). Warlock vs Rogue may be an uphill battle for the Warlock, but it's neither impossible nor unfair, as the Rogue in turn has other classes he's weak against.

[gundato]

I don't know why though because they're all valid methods. The other guy did better than you, too bad. For all the people saying that Spies and Snipers and Pyros are useless, it's a wonder that they ever kill anybody... and if they're killing somebody, they're putting them back into the spawn queue and it's one less person in the field.

Sometimes it seems like people define a weapon or class as "cheap" or "overpowered" if they can't defeat it when playing as any class with any other weapon. It's different from a game-breaking weapon or class which has no hard counters at all. Since when were FPS games scored based on finesse and honour?

Yeah, one thing people don't realize is the force divider aspect of many of those classes. When people are freaked out, they go out of their way to finish off the threat. That is fewer people going after the objectives (and easier kills for said threat).

Maybe the kill/death ratio or even the score for the guy running headlong into danger (me!) might be higher (not if I am playing :p), but the sniper is making a decent impact on the game.

in TF2 for example, if a team thinks there is a decent spy threat, a lot of those players are gonna go pyro and start doing spy checks. That is fewer people doing what they were doing before, and it gives the other team a better chance.

[Jiiiiim]

Snipers and spies keep you on your toes, as has been said. They allow unique strategies and counters to the two big bottlenecks that are heavy-medics and massed sentries, as has also been said. I have nothing but respect for those who can play those classes well - I've been playing TF2 for what must be a thousand years at this point and I still cannot play spy well on an organised server, and I'm only beginning to get the hang of sniping in a way that helps the team. Every other class, I've found some comfortable groove that I can run along all day but those two remain unsolved mysteries.

But I mainly play on a server which has some particularly good spies and snipers so I have had to at least learn the counters. With spies, I like that it's not just the obvious thing of looking for people running the wrong way, or bumping into them to see if they're on your team, but stuff like actually listening. The dead ringer makes an almighty racket of a noise but even the basic uncloak should be audible if you're concentrating, or the sound of a spycicle stab (as that doesn't flash up on the screen). I like using the scoreboard to check if a dead ringer has fired, or watching the backs of likely victims, or checking to see if ammo packs mysteriously disappear, or firing into corners that you know spies tend to hide in. With snipers, obviously they've only got that tiny cone of vision so I enjoy that omaha-beach feel of madly crouch-running between cover, of finding some way behind them and then killing them in the most humiliating manner possible.

Spies and snipers keep the game fresh, interesting and challenging in a way that no other class does, even though I hate playing as them.

[Hypernetic]

Snipers and spies keep you on your toes, as has been said. They allow unique strategies and counters to the two big bottlenecks that are heavy-medics and massed sentries, as has also been said. I have nothing but respect for those who can play those classes well - I've been playing TF2 for what must be a thousand years at this point and I still cannot play spy well on an organised server, and I'm only beginning to get the hang of sniping in a way that helps the team. Every other class, I've found some comfortable groove that I can run along all day but those two remain unsolved mysteries.

But I mainly play on a server which has some particularly good spies and snipers so I have had to at least learn the counters. With spies, I like that it's not just the obvious thing of looking for people running the wrong way, or bumping into them to see if they're on your team, but stuff like actually listening. The dead ringer makes an almighty racket of a noise but even the basic uncloak should be audible if you're concentrating, or the sound of a spycicle stab (as that doesn't flash up on the screen). I like using the scoreboard to check if a dead ringer has fired, or watching the backs of likely victims, or checking to see if ammo packs mysteriously disappear, or firing into corners that you know spies tend to hide in. With snipers, obviously they've only got that tiny cone of vision so I enjoy that omaha-beach feel of madly crouch-running between cover, of finding some way behind them and then killing them in the most humiliating manner possible.

Spies and snipers keep the game fresh, interesting and challenging in a way that no other class does, even though I hate playing as them.

If you want to practice playing Spy I recommend playing on Red team on Badwater Basin. It's probably the best map to learn spy on and being on defense is more forgiving than offense as spy on that map.

[Boris]

You're missing the main point. WoW's player vs player combat was never and will never be balanced around 1vs1 combat. It's not even really balanced for 2vs2 combat, as the removal of 2v2 arena as the top-rated arena format shows.
If you're in a BG and face off against a rogue alone you have to ask yourself why you're running around without a teammate (and also why the rogue is running around without a teammate). Warlock vs Rogue may be an uphill battle for the Warlock, but it's neither impossible nor unfair, as the Rogue in turn has other classes he's weak against.

Well, because a Rogue can pick off a target in less than 10 seconds flat (just like a Warlock, I have to admit), it takes just a very short moment (on the order of seconds) for you to be separated from your teammates, then you die. He can also wait in stealth all the time for that to happen.

If a Rogue went completely exposed when they opened, it would be more fair, but that is not the case. They can cloak most crap off and just disappear again. I don't have a problem with the stealth factor of it, but just the ridiculous amount of tools a Rogue gets.

Rogues are somewhat countered by Hunters and Frost Mages, and that is it. The rest of the classes they do OK to great against.

It just felt as if the Warlock class was just not important to them, with their lopsided ability in PvP (yeah people complain about fear, but a ton of classes have a fear breaker), and their mechanic issues. I'm sure I'd have sticked around longer if I played some class they did care about, like Mage or perhaps Druid.

[Nalano]

Well, because a Rogue can pick off a target in less than 10 seconds flat (just like a Warlock, I have to admit), it takes just a very short moment (on the order of seconds) for you to be separated from your teammates, then you die. He can also wait in stealth all the time for that to happen.

Here is me PvPing: Pew pew pew tab target pew pew pew tab target pew pew pew tab target pew pew pew check stats LOL TOPPING KILLING BLOWS pew pew pew.

You people make it sound like rogues are godlike beings that have no cooldown periods and can't be pulled outta stealth. You make it sound like everybody's squishy and nobody watches one another's backs. Mutants like you are what made my job so easy. Pew pew pew...

[Hypernetic]

Warlocks have been consistently good in PVP since vanilla. Try playing a shaman for 7 years if you want to know what it's like to have the developers not care.

It took years for us to even get a blue poster to talk to us again after bus shock.

[Nalano]

Warlocks have been consistently good in PVP since vanilla. Try playing a shaman for 7 years if you want to know what it's like to have the developers not care.

It took years for us to even get a blue poster to talk to us again after bus shock.

Shaman? Pfft. Where's your bubble?

/duck

[Boris]

Here is me PvPing: Pew pew pew tab target pew pew pew tab target pew pew pew tab target pew pew pew check stats LOL TOPPING KILLING BLOWS pew pew pew.

You people make it sound like rogues are godlike beings that have no cooldown periods and can't be pulled outta stealth. You make it sound like everybody's squishy and nobody watches one another's backs. Mutants like you are what made my job so easy. Pew pew pew...

No they're not. In general. They can just own all warlock engagements they join. I can hold my own against most classes, Rogues just pissed me off to no end, there was no balance in a straight up Rogue/Warlock encounter.

Warlocks have been consistently good in PVP since vanilla. Try playing a shaman for 7 years if you want to know what it's like to have the developers not care.

It took years for us to even get a blue poster to talk to us again after bus shock.

Oh we accidentally changed all your demon's names? We're not going to change them back.
But you said we couldn't pick our own demon names because of lore reasons and that this was integral to the warlock class?
Eventually they did, but only after the entire warlock community cried out on the forums.

I really think I shouldn't have rolled a Warlock when I started the game, but I did not know anything about it back them.

[Nalano]

No they're not. In general. They can just own all warlock engagements they join. I can hold my own against most classes, Rogues just pissed me off to no end, there was no balance in a straight up Rogue/Warlock encounter.

Ignoring that the game isn't balanced for 1v1, I know many, many PvP locks that laugh at rogues. And really, if you're alone and a rogue finds you, whose fault is that?

[Hypernetic]

No they're not. In general. They can just own all warlock engagements they join. I can hold my own against most classes, Rogues just pissed me off to no end, there was no balance in a straight up Rogue/Warlock encounter.



Oh we accidentally changed all your demon's names? We're not going to change them back.
But you said we couldn't pick our own demon names because of lore reasons and that this was integral to the warlock class?
Eventually they did, but only after the entire warlock community cried out on the forums.

I really think I shouldn't have rolled a Warlock when I started the game, but I did not know anything about it back them.

Is that the best you got?

*Major Shaman update INCOMING*: Stormstrike has a new icon.

*Vanilla Class Review*: Oh so you know all those positive changes we were going to make? Well the CM responsible for relaying your feedback to us was home sick, so we just nerfed you instead. We won't be making any more changes until the next expansion.

*Totems suck, says the community for 7 years*: We won't change totems because they are iconic... until MoP when we apparently change our mind and agree with you that totems sucked.

*There is no hybrid tax*: unless you are a shaman.

NEED I GO ON?!

[Subatomic]

I never thought I'd come across a "my class had it worse than yours!"-thread again after leaving WoW behind for good, yet here we are...

[Hypernetic]

I never thought I'd come across a "my class had it worse than yours!"-thread again after leaving WoW behind for good, yet here we are...

He started it!

[Nalano]

I never thought I'd come across a "my class had it worse than yours!"-thread again after leaving WoW behind for good, yet here we are...

KamehameHAAAAAA

[Boris]

Is that the best you got?

*Major Shaman update INCOMING*: Stormstrike has a new icon.

*Vanilla Class Review*: Oh so you know all those positive changes we were going to make? Well the CM responsible for relaying your feedback to us was home sick, so we just nerfed you instead. We won't be making any more changes until the next expansion.

*Totems suck, says the community for 7 years*: We won't change totems because they are iconic... until MoP when we apparently change our mind and agree with you that totems sucked.

*There is no hybrid tax*: unless you are a shaman.

NEED I GO ON?!

Yes, or start looking up the warlock variants of the same. I mean, the totem one directly applies to the demon one.

Perhaps we both should have played DK.