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  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    Anything connected to a network need updates. Is something like a rule of cybernetics.

    Microsoft asking 10k for a bug fix is just another greedy way to monetize other people work. Steam don't seems to need these cents. These cents are not on the benefit of the players or the devs, are on the benefit of Microsoft.
    I am a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endo-skeleton.

  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    an attention-seeking Twitter twit?
    Perhaps the most redundant phrase ever uttered.

  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Am I the only one who has no fucking clue who Phil Fish is? I've also never even heard of this game.
    There are plenty of articles online about him, plus he was in that indie game movie (the RPS article states that he eventually infected the movie and it's one time when the word "hipster" really does apply here in all its negativity). He's known for being a massive tool who quite happily entered into the contract with Microsoft, and also told a bunch of other people to go "suck a dick" when he won an IGF award.

    He's got one of the worst attitudes around.

  4. #84
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    There are plenty of articles online about him, plus he was in that indie game movie (the RPS article states that he eventually infected the movie and it's one time when the word "hipster" really does apply here in all its negativity). He's known for being a massive tool who quite happily entered into the contract with Microsoft, and also told a bunch of other people to go "suck a dick" when he won an IGF award.

    He's got one of the worst attitudes around.
    Not just a random dick, his own dick.
    Steam(shots), Imgur, Flickr, Bak'laag, why do you forsake me?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by somini View Post
    Not just a random dick, his own dick.
    I'm looking forward to telling him to suck mine own dick when he brings his shit game to Steam after his Xbox exclusivity deal is up in a few months.
    "What were we talking about? Pegasuses, pegasii, that's horses with wings. This motherf*cker got a sword that talks to him. Motherf*cker live in places that don't exist, it comes with a map. My God."

  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Why wait? I'm sure he's Googled his name recently enough that he's found this thread.

  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    Why wait? I'm sure he's Googled his name recently enough that he's found this thread.
    He could be any one of us! He could be you! He could be me! He could even be...

  8. #88
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    He could be any one of us! He could be you! He could be me! He could even be...
    *drops the mic*

    But seriously, I'm looking forward to buying the game again when it releases on Steam. I'm looking forward to playing it on a machine that isn't an ad riddled hide my games piece of shit that sounds like a hoover. Because Fez is really good and whatever Phil may have said or done in the past, telling MS that they're not getting more cert fees is far from a stupid thing to do.

    Because I am Phil Fish. SURPRISE.*

    *may not actually be Phil Fish
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I am a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endo-skeleton.

    We're not all?
    Every winter people get the flu, because the bug upgrade his attacks, so people need to upgrade his defenses, sometimes with a vaccine.

    (Music non-related)
    Last edited by Tei; 20-07-2012 at 07:33 PM.

  10. #90
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Microsoft's response.

    Phil Fish must be a public relation team's dream. "Yeah, but look at that asshole!"

  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Incidentally does anyone know the sales figures for Fez? I mean it's a lot of money to push through another patch (despite the fact that he should have known that when he basically went "Man fuck everyone else I'm gonna get that BIG MONEY ON THE M TO THE S hipster sellout reefer bro!" and signed up with Microsoft) but if he's raked in a significant amount of cash I can't see why he just can't pay it and push the patch out.

    Having watched that indie game documentary through it seems like Fez has always had issues. Watching him try to present it at PAX and seeing it crash so often got a good chuckle out of me, especially given what's happened now.

  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Incidentally does anyone know the sales figures for Fez? I mean it's a lot of money to push through another patch (despite the fact that he should have known that when he basically went "Man fuck everyone else I'm gonna get that BIG MONEY ON THE M TO THE S hipster sellout reefer bro!" and signed up with Microsoft) but if he's raked in a significant amount of cash I can't see why he just can't pay it and push the patch out.

    Having watched that indie game documentary through it seems like Fez has always had issues. Watching him try to present it at PAX and seeing it crash so often got a good chuckle out of me, especially given what's happened now.
    Word on the street is 100k units sold.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  13. #93
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    Microsoft's response.

    Phil Fish must be a public relation team's dream. "Yeah, but look at that asshole!"
    Efff, I'm not sure how that disputes anything Phil said at all. It merely clarifies the original statement from Phil.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant
    Money question thingy
    Nobody knows for sure, there's a rough estimate of around 100k (I assume this has been picked up from leaderboard info, that's usually how people guess the numbers anyway) which at first glance, one would assume this means that the dev is rolling in it.

    So let's assume it's made a million dollars anyway for simplicities sake. It soon starts to break down when you consider that there will be a *minimum* of 30% stripped from the profits going straight to MS pockets. Depending on whether Phil took any other assistance from them, that figure could see MS taking a larger cut that could be anywhere between 30% and 40%. So, before Polytron even get paid, that million has been reduced by 300 or 400 thousand. Maybe more.

    From what remains, you'll then have to remove any funding that needs to be paid back. Under the assumption (because I don't know for sure) that Trapdoor or other sources will have invested funds in order to see the game through to release, this will need to be paid back also. Then there's repayment of any outstanding loans or investments to get through cert in the first place. Let's assume 20-40k there too, any QA (don't laugh) costs. There's 5 years of development costs, which is plenty of time to rack up copious debt whilst making a game - credit cards maxxed, bank loans taken out - none of these things are unusual ways to fund indie console gaming. Then there'll be money for music, sfx or other contract jobs that were required to get the game out there as complete as it could be...

    ...I don't know for certain, obviously, but it's not hard to see how after 5 years of development (and all the costs that publishing on a console can rack up) vast sums of that money disappearing elsewhere promptly. So by the time you've cleared all that out the way, 40k becomes a massive chunk of what you're left with. It wouldn't surprise me if that was somewhere in the region of half of what's left over. Hopefully for Phil, that's not the case.

    It's sorta the problem with trying to guess sales vs cost of patch, unless we're talking Fez doing Trials Evo or Minecraft style numbers on XBLA, you can never quite be sure that the money is there to spend. Especially with something that's taken this long.
    Last edited by RobF; 21-07-2012 at 05:41 AM.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woundedbum View Post
    And even if there is something wrong, with most big game companies, a day later it'll be patched.
    That is actually how it usually works on PC (or should work), on consoles by the very definition of this process called "certification" that is not possible and customers will often have to wait weeks (Microsoft takes its time) for a fix, and as was already stated, a Patch alone costs anywhere from $10.000-$50.000 to "certifiy" so they have to be considered even by major studios and can't just be thrown out there on good faith a day later like on Steam: http://www.edge-online.com/news/schafer-console-patches-cost-40000



     
    That said, Microsoft and their XBLA service is generally horrible...

    1) They are responsible for this DLC plague that is upon us. On the first Xbox they were the only ones to charge for content. They pegged the term "DLC" in 2002 I believe. On Xbox 360 they made it mandatory that DLC cost money and they get a cut, creating "value".
    A few developers, Valve among many others spoke out about that: http://www.shacknews.com/article/60365/microsoft-forces-valve-to-price , also EPIC and Team 17/Bizarre Creations: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147804
    Microsoft doesn't WANT things to be free, cause they want to create an "environment of value", and how would the big publishers look? They are the reason why "long term support" got replaced by "BUY OUR DLC!"

    2) They are charging all sorts of royalties, 10% off the top of every sold game, there's also royalties for the amount of discs used, so a lot of developers are trying to fit their games on one disc, max two, even cut content and compress textures/graphics/videos/sound to the best of their ability since Microsoft didn't want to go BluRay/HDDVD from the get go, else it would be too expensive: http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/01/carmack-rage-to-look-worse-on-360-if-limited-to-two-dvds/
    And there's always long waiting periods and "certifications" for any new game or game change (e.g. Patch or "DLC"), which are likely just a pretense to generate more money that way.

    3) They are treating their Indie developers like crap to be pushed around, just see this survey, most are saying it is excruciating to work with Microsoft while they love Steam: http://nightmaremode.net/2011/10/steam-beats-xblapsn-as-easiest-platform-to-develop-indie-games-on-12073/

    They even wanted to fuck Indie developers over by cutting their earnings from 70% down to 35% at one point, but the backlash was so huge that they backed off in the end: http://kotaku.com/359668/microsoft-cuts-indie-royalties-in-half
    They are further treating XBLIG as the red-haired step-child: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/07/xblig-feature/
    And they are being beyond childish with "Exclusivity": http://nexus404.com/Blog/2011/08/24/microsoft-not-interested-in-publishing-downloadable-games-that-were-on-psn-first-microsoft-says-they-wont-publish-games-on-xbox-live-arcade-if-they-were-on-psn-first-games-that-get-more-content-on/

    Let's not forget that they also bought many PC mainly developers like EPIC or Remedy off (even Halo was supposed to be a PC/Mac title) and made the internal studios that developed games for PC like Microsoft Games Studios or Ensemble turn to console development instead.

    They also set Games for Windows Live upon this world, for that alone they shall burn in hell, on top of that they even tried to charge everyone using that "service" a fee similar to their "Xbox Live Subscription" till 2008 if anyone can remember, when the pressure from Steam and the people telling them to gently fuck off got too big to support such a model they suddenly didn't need a monthly fee on PC anymore: http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/22/microsoft-makes-games-for-windows-live-free-for-all/

    They are horrible, and them entering the console market back when they did is one of worst things to happen to gaming in a long while, initiating all the "PC Gaming is dead" talk since it beneffited their platform, following a mass-exodus of a lot of developers to the "console pastures"...

    Not to say that this Phil Fish guy is a dick too, so they kind of fit well together...
    Last edited by Dexter; 21-07-2012 at 06:22 AM.

  15. #95
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    ...I don't know for certain, obviously, but it's not hard to see how after 5 years of development (and all the costs that publishing on a console can rack up) vast sums of that money disappearing elsewhere promptly. So by the time you've cleared all that out the way, 40k becomes a massive chunk of what you're left with. It wouldn't surprise me if that was somewhere in the region of half of what's left over. Hopefully for Phil, that's not the case.
    I'm not inclined to be empathetic because of 5 years of development. He spent 5 years doing... what exactly? Revising his tilesets? Obsessing over pointless little details? Those 5 years don't show anything here. The fact that it took 5 years probably speaks more to his inability to manage a project (or biting off more than he can chew) than anything to be proud of.

    Regardless, he chose to give everyone the finger and publish with Microsoft. I don't put my hand on a hotplate and accuse it of being an arsehole when it burns me knowing full well that it can.

  16. #96
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    I'm not asking you to empathise with anything, just to appreciate that whether you approve or not, 5 years of full time console development comes at a price. And that price, for most indies, is generally $everythingyouhaveandthensome.

    You asked how many copies it had sold and queried whether he'd raked loads of money in so therefor could just punt out a patch if so. I just responded to that. It's possible that he could given the sales figures but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be crippling.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Most independent developers basically break even when they make a game (obviously, there are exceptions). They fall into a trap where they need a publisher or someone like MS to fund their next game to continue as a business and can never really break free of that grasp unless they make a game that is insanely popular.

    I read an article about it somewhere but I don't feel like looking for it.

    Success stories like Minecraft and some of the other indie games where the developer went from being broke to being a millionaire practically overnight are extremely rare in comparison to how many indie devs there are out there.

  18. #98
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    I'm not asking you to empathise with anything, etc...
    That's fine, and thanks for answering my query, but from where I sit the 5 years they spent doing... whatever they did (the documentary doesn't exactly make it clear beyond scrapping various things and Phil Fish telling people to fuck off) doesn't really mean jack to me. Phil Fish had a grant from the Canadian government, kept changing things as if he was Valve and could afford it, jumped into bed with Microsoft, acted like a complete tool, and now cries poor.

    He deserves the price. He deserves it more than Project Zomboid suffering a major setback because they had no proper backup system in place. I don't appreciate anything about it costing "$everythingyouhaveandthensome" in this case because he clearly screwed up.

  19. #99
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    The documentary doesn't make anything clear because it's a load of bollocks but if you play Fez, it's fairly easy to see where 5 years of development time has gone. I wouldn't exactly call it wasted time.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  20. #100
    Lesser Hivemind Node Oshada's Avatar
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    If Trapdoor make another game, will people buy it, given this debacle?

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