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  1. #101
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Well, Trapdoor are only funding it as far as I'm aware so I don't see how whatever Polytron do would effect that but if you mean would anyone buy a Polytron game again? Yeah, probably. I would. If it looks good enough. I'm fucking sick of the tabloid tittle tattle witch hunt that's gone on around Phil for the most part and I won't let that effect my buying decisions.

    I'll buy Fez when it comes out on Steam too as I said above, it's an excellent game. Admittedly, there's a proportion of the content I have no interest in but as you can walk away without having to indulge yourself going ever deeper down the rabbit hole, I'm happy with that. The first ending makes the whole thing worthwhile, it's magnificent and bollocks out brassy as fuck.

    And to get what's happening now in proportion, the patch fixes almost everything, it just corrupts existing saves at a certain point. Whilst it's not ideal, you can just start the game again and everything will be hunky dory from then on in. Sucks to lose progress but it's not the shitageddon the media have made this out to be. Of course, if you read some of the reports about this, you wouldn't actually know that so hung up are they on passing judgement or thou shalts. You'd think it'd be a fairly critical thing to mention but hey ho, eh?
    Last edited by RobF; 21-07-2012 at 07:30 AM.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
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  2. #102
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    The documentary doesn't make anything clear because it's a load of bollocks but if you play Fez, it's fairly easy to see where 5 years of development time has gone. I wouldn't exactly call it wasted time.
    Please enlighten me, because all I really see from watching others play it is an interesting graphical mechanic which has an interesting art style... and that's about it. A lot of effort went into it, to be sure, but for 5 years?

    Also I'm not sure why the documentary is such a load of bollocks when it's mostly Phil Fish (at least relevant to this point) talking about how he kept changing the game idea, kept adding to the game, is obsessed with details, and then that 5 minute or so rant about that guy who left the company...

  3. #103
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Yes, 5 years. That level of detail and the artwork alone isn't something that happens in a week. There's a lot more to Fez than the screen flipping if you want to dig deep enough. Personally, I didn't. I was content with just the exploration, platforming and walked at 32 cubes very happy - I'd had my fill and the ending satisfied me.

    There's an entire other game in there that involves a series of cryptic puzzles to be solved and it's immense just how much detail there is to each of them. The world is huge and there isn't really a screen that doesn't serve some higher purpose or have something to do in it. It really is a game about going down the rabbit hole, then going down the rabbit hole some more, and then some more, and then where am I again and why am I surrounded with bits of paper with strange symbols and Tetris shapes scribbled all over them? With an owl?

    Outside the platforming, Fez is a game about all those schoolyard myths. If you hover over the moocow and press X,Y, UP DOWN DOWN something magical happens. If you go to the graveyard at 12 o'clock and wait for 6 hours something happens. Bullshit made up examples but that's the sort of stuff that is Fez and can't really be conveyed in the screenshots. There's translations to be made, puzzles to be solved, mysteries to be uncovered. If you want. It's all optional.

    Spoilers but this is the real game of Fez, not the one you'll see people play.

    Even if you don't like what it is, it's hard not to be impressed by what it is once you realise how deep its veins run.
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  4. #104
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Outside the platforming, Fez is a game about all those schoolyard myths.
    Yeah, I know. That documentary that was absolute bollocks (apparently) had Fish specifically mention that point about once or twice in between restarting the game because it kept crashing.

    That's all well and good, but can you actually show that all of that detail took the 5 years, as opposed to going "I don't like this pixel art because it's not pixelly enough REDOING ENTIRE TILESET BRB"?

    Then again I guess I should just give up, because I remember the last time I argued with you about indie games, and you basically shouted me down with "No you wouldn't understand you're not part of the scene" or something. Fez is a masterpiece by a misunderstood anti-social genius. Happy?

  5. #105
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Yeah, I can. Here's a detailed diary and worklog of the time Phil spent on each and every screen that Phil sent me especially to show you how hard he'd worked.

    Believe whatever the fuck you want, man. I don't really care. I was just answering your questions. I don't want an argument, so whatever.
    Last edited by RobF; 21-07-2012 at 09:34 AM.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
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  6. #106
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    I find it hard to believe Fez only sold 100,000 units for two reasons, first being the fact it has sold 20k on its first day which is an exceptionally large number. there is no way he only sold 100,000 in three months.

    And second is the fact that i know what internet presence the approx of 100,000 sold units has on the internet, and fez has a much much larger presence on forums/comments posts. Sure, it can be said that this is due to phil being an outspoken person who stir controversy, but still, i see people speak about playing it everywhere.

    Alright, just did a quick search:

    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...000-units.aspx

    this was in may 30, almost two months ago.
    Last edited by burningpet; 21-07-2012 at 09:10 AM.

  7. #107
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Remembered about Ryan's posts for Gamasutra where he checks the numbers. After the first few weeks on XBLA, there's usually a fairly hefty drop off and sure enough...



    It's still selling but it's selling incredibly slowly and that'll only continue to drop off naturally. Still above average by a lot of XBLA's standards but very far from the big league too.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times
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  8. #108
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Microsoft's statement:

    "Polytron and their investor, Trapdoor, made the decision not to work on an additional title update for Fez," the statement starts. "Microsoft Studios chose to support this decision based on the belief that Polytron/Trapdoor were in the best position to determine what the acceptable quality level is for their game. While we do not disclose the cost of Title Updates, we did offer to work with Trapdoor to make sure that wasn't a blocking issue. We remain huge fans of Fez."
    Hmmm. I wonder what they'll respond to this.

  9. #109
    Lesser Hivemind Node johnki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woundedbum View Post
    Microsoft's statement:

    Hmmm. I wonder what they'll respond to this.
    My question is actually what that means for Fez's fans. It's kind of sad to see that Phil "I'm the best, suck my dick, choke on it" Fish has given up (I say given up since Microsoft agreed to work with them and they refused) on his game before several game-breaking bugs have been patched out, let alone all the little ones.

  10. #110
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Honestly, the part you've bolded means absolutely nothing apart from to clarify that MS and Polytron/Trapdoor were in talks about the patch. Which is something we already knew and was covered in Phil's original statement. MS are doing nothing but supporting the original statement and pointing out that they haven't tried to initiate any clauses (assuming any exist) to make them patch the game, that they're happy to support Polytron's decision to not patch the game further and that at some point, they've had negotiations. So, there's nothing really to come back with. Everything is in the same place as it was before and as we already knew.

    If you're effected by the TU save corruption bug, you just start the game again and it's gone never to be seen again. Anyone buying the game new will have a game that won't be effected by the bug.
    This is the really important part that keeps getting lost in this drama. This is all you have to do to have a working Fez now. Losing progress is never ideal but still... Fez works, the bugs are patched in TU1. A small percentage of people will lose suffer a corrupt save if they're playing an existing game but they can just restart and everything is fine.

    And in no time at all, I'm pretty sure everyone will be able to get their hands on a -supported- version of the game via other avenues.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
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  11. #111
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Losing a save file in a game sucks, when I've gotten corrupted data in games before I've been pretty apprehensive about playing through them again.

  12. #112
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Oh, no arguments there. It's a gutting thing to have happen but at least in this case, it's a rare thing and won't happen to anybody who comes along and buys the game in the future and won't happen if someone restarts the game and plays again.

    So, rotten if you're the unlucky 1% who didn't finish the game before the TU and whom fate will decide you'll get caught by the save bug, certainly.

    But mainly my concern is that amongst the Phil said this, Phil said that and mass of internet noise and fury, the essential fact that TU2 would be to fix nothing but that glitchout. It's not a rollup of other issues being patched or anything like that, all that stuff is in TU1 which has gone live again.
    That work is done.

    TU2 would be $XLOTS of money to fix precisely one issue
    .

    And it's an issue with a workaround. Not a nice workaround but still. A workaround. This isn't the shitageddon it's being made out to be.
    Last edited by RobF; 22-07-2012 at 05:17 AM.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times
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  13. #113
    Lesser Hivemind Node johnki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Anyone buying the game new will have a game that won't be effected by the bug.
    I'm 95% sure that everywhere I read about the patch mentioned that the save corruption bug still exists.

    I mean, I'm not saying that it still does, it's just what I remember reading.

  14. #114
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Yes, but it's a bug that will effect a small amount of -existing- saves only. In order to trigger the conditions required, you'd need to be in possession of a pre-patch save.

    If you buy the game now, it'll prompt you to patch right away after purchase and you won't ever hit the bug.

    If you nuke your old save and start again once patched, you won't trigger the bug.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times
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  15. #115
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Yes, but it's a bug that will effect a small amount of -existing- saves only. In order to trigger the conditions required, you'd need to be in possession of a pre-patch save.
    So what? It's game breaking.

  16. #116
    Lesser Hivemind Node johnki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    So what? It's game breaking.
    And never getting fixed. For how much of a self-centered ass Phil Fish is, he definitely isn't doing himself any favors by not fixing it.

  17. #117
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnki View Post
    And never getting fixed. For how much of a self-centered ass Phil Fish is, he definitely isn't doing himself any favors by not fixing it.
    Maybe he'll start a kickstarter to fix it! =D

  18. #118
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    So what? It's game breaking.
    Not arguing it isn't. Just pointing out that it's a bug that'll effect less than 1% of people and the 1% of people have a way to rid themselves of the bug forever now. Again, it's not ideal, but it's a way.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times
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  19. #119
    Lesser Hivemind Node johnki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Not arguing it isn't. Just pointing out that it's a bug that'll effect less than 1% of people and the 1% of people have a way to rid themselves of the bug forever now. Again, it's not ideal, but it's a way.
    Still isn't an excuse for them to say "oh, we know we won two IGF Grand Prizes, and we know that you guys spent your hard earned cash, and we even know that the certification fee isn't actually an issue like we wanted you to believe, but we just don't care enough to fix it."

  20. #120
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    They're not saying that.

    There's nothing to imply that MS offered to waive the fee and there's nothing to imply that Polytron actually have that money to spend. The continued inclusion of Trapdoor in this debate seems to corroborate this. If there was no fee to be paid, why would you include investors in the talks? If you had the money, why would you include investors in the talks? If you don't care... why even have those talks to try and get the patch made? Seriously, why would you spend 3 months out of your life talking to a massive corporation when you know that you could just not patch the game if you wanted to, that you could just sit and wait out the exclusivity clause and run without lifting a finger?

    Two IGF prizes wouldn't even pay for submissions, two IGF prizes likely wouldn't even cover the cost of pushing this patch through cert. Both the prizes add up to around 27k, which is a lot of money for most people, it'd be a fortune to me but it's not even enough to cover one solitary patch when it comes to console dev. See my previous post earlier in the thread for a vague idea of just how much money disappears for indies during a console dev cycle and how 1 million dollars made on a game doesn't equate to 1 million dollars or necessarily anything close to that sitting in a devs bank account. It would be super sweet if it did, mind :D

    This is a massively horrid decision for any dev to have to take. Schafer has had to take it prior and opted for the same as Phil and there are other games that have suffered a similar fate. There's reasons why developers are exiting stage left from XBLA development and why the past few years has seen scant other than licensed titles or megapub tatware on there punctuated occasionally by old signings or sequels finally seeing the light of day. Devs want games on consoles, devs want to support games on consoles but when support is actively penalised? Isn't that, like, total shit? Making someone pay to patch their game, to make their game better...

    There's, honestly, a point where it's better to just fucking bail and go somewhere else before it ruins you if it hasn't ruined you already and at that point, no amount of WHAT YOU SHOULD DO IS THIS *can* make doing it viable or an option. It's shit but that's development for you. And walking can't be done before launch because contracts signed at a time when the service wasn't shit and when the other options we have now were, you can't just walk away from so easily.
    Last edited by RobF; 22-07-2012 at 08:55 AM.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times
    Steam

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