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  1. #221
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Kadayi:
    I should have put the weasel word "many" in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And all that takes is a very vocal minority.
    This word has negative connotations, but let's not forget there are reasons these people are vocal. My impression is that Linux people tend to be more passionate in general. So far, almost everyone who uses Linux uses it because of his own choice (!). This filters certain kind of people, perhaps with more critical thinking, technical inclination, willingness to tinker and experiment, people who like to be independent. Long story short I think passionate people are also more passionate about games.

    Macs are very rare in Poland because historically they have been very expensive. My impression is they're targetted at people who even take pride in not knowing how their computer works. It just works, get out of the way ! Ubuntu shares the same mentality, it felt refreshing switching to Debian. The first Debian user I asked for help not only told me how to fix/configure something, but why. He didn't assume I was stupid or uninterested.

    That being said, it is showing a shift in the indie dev mentality to make Linux support the default. Of course, it is still the indie devs who are doing this. But one big success story that had Linux support, and it should make a difference.
    And some of these indies will grow into big companies. I strongly doubt they will say they could only do that as long as they were small. Cost can't be the main problem if the smallest game devs do it. I think it's cultural, and habitual. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

    Linux and games is a bit of a chicken&egg scenario. People hesitate to make a full switch (I removed my windows partition when Ubuntu Breezy Badger was released) because they don't want to miss games. But big studios don't want to make games for a small audience.
    I think Gabe Newell is right about saying people underestimate the importance of games (for operating systems).

    Perception is what matters.
    And good for you that you have annecdotal evidence of windows problems and that you have a system. Most people tend to buy those crappy pre-made systems though, so they can't use your system.
    My point exactly, a lot of people don't have an experience with installing Windows. As computers become more mainstream, even something relatively simple as this is seen as somewhat arcane. In the end, I think the attitude makes the biggest difference. A friend of our family owns a small business and is an entrpreneur in the original sense, aside from running a business he's always looking for an opportunity. Not just to sell or buy, but to learn something interesting. Actually he's a bit of an inventor, too. He had absolutely no problem switching to Linux. He had heard good things about it, and the laptop he was buying had it installed so rather than bitching he thought why not give it a try. He liked it. He doesn't play games, all the kinds of apps he needs run (I mean for example MS Office doesn't, but OpenOffice/LibreOffice works for him). The only unsolved issue is one video streaming website (not a porn euphemism, I don't remember the address) which is made with Silverlight. A language that even its creator, Microsoft, has abandoned.
    Oh, he's past 60.

    I like unity and wish they would support linux with the editor itself. But I doubt Activision and Bioware are using Unity :p
    A valid point, but I find myself less and less interested in AAA games. I have always greatly valued creativity and thought provoking stuff. These days I'm finding myself playing quite a lot boardgames, and RPS is partially to blame for this. I share Greg Costikyan's view on games.

    Based on your post, I get the feeling you play a lot of indie/indie-esque games. And those do often get linux support. But it is going to be the big devs/publishers who really start a shift. Valve is going to give them the option and try to start the ball rolling, but it won't really take off until Activision or EA start supporting Linux too (as the default case).
    The last AAA game I bought was Quake Wars or Prey.

    See above, big devs are made out of small devs. Which is not always a good thing, Runic Games is 30 people and they want to grow to 25. One of the big names in the company said with a smaller team they can focus just on making games instead of politics. Also Brian Fargo seems to have some sentiment, he hopes Kickstarter will help revive medium sized game developers.
    Capitalism, especially the American breed of it, places too much emphasis on growth, often even growth over documented ability to create profit ! I think it all stems from XIV century, which to my knowledge is the time when kings and other rulers started issuing centralized currency. Prior to that you had many types of currency in any given area. Unsurprisingly, the best way to use it was to spend it quickly instead of saving, because individual currencies were much less stable. This is why merchants thrived - they were the ones with skills and the drive to keep making money. Kings and nobility didn't profit, they inherited money and that works even when you're a bad businessman or lazy :-). They didn't centralize currency out of kindness of their hearts (to stabilize it), but to enable loans with an interest rate. Which means earning money while not doing much.
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  2. #222
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    This word has negative connotations, but let's not forget there are reasons these people are vocal. My impression is that Linux people tend to be more passionate in general. So far, almost everyone who uses Linux uses it because of his own choice (!). This filters certain kind of people, perhaps with more critical thinking, technical inclination, willingness to tinker and experiment, people who like to be independent. Long story short I think passionate people are also more passionate about games.
    More vocal would probably be a better term.

    But again, it is (probably) a minority. And they also tend to have VERY strong opinions. The kind who are pretty much impossible to please. So probably not the best selling point :p

    Macs are very rare in Poland because historically they have been very expensive. My impression is they're targetted at people who even take pride in not knowing how their computer works. It just works, get out of the way ! Ubuntu shares the same mentality, it felt refreshing switching to Debian. The first Debian user I asked for help not only told me how to fix/configure something, but why. He didn't assume I was stupid or uninterested.
    Yes, but most people don't give a rat's ass about that. I run Linux Mint because it is the simplest distro I can find that still lets me do what I need to do. If I need to write an elaborate script to archive something I legally purchased, I can go write one. If I want to just browse the internet and watch youtube, I can do that too.


    And some of these indies will grow into big companies. I strongly doubt they will say they could only do that as long as they were small. Cost can't be the main problem if the smallest game devs do it. I think it's cultural, and habitual. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
    Actually, I will be interested in how many "big companies" still cater to Linuxy people.

    Let's put it this way: You are Notch. You are an arrogant prick who is working on militarizing his fanbase so he can do whatever you want from a legal standpoint. You harken back to when you were making Minecraft: If you wanted to do something, you did it. If you wanted to support something, you did it. If you wanted to try something, you didn't have to worry about alienating your fanbase because it was only your livelihood on the line.

    Now, you are Gabe Newell. These days, you barely get to do any of the fun stuff (you are more of a creative input guy). So if you want to add a really cool easter egg (that is actually just an egg...), you have to allocate a modeler to make the mesh, a texture artist to make the skin, a coder to implement the behavior, and a bunch of testers to make sure it still works. And let's say you wanted to make an off-color joke in the process: Suddenly, you have to be very careful. If people take it the wrong way, your employees suffer.

    So yeah, a small dev has a LOT of freedom. A big dev, not so much. And, to my understanding, you basically need opengl support if you want anything other than Windows. And that might very well be problematic if you are utilizing a lot of directx function calls.


    A valid point, but I find myself less and less interested in AAA games. I have always greatly valued creativity and thought provoking stuff. These days I'm finding myself playing quite a lot boardgames, and RPS is partially to blame for this. I share Greg Costikyan's view on games.

    The last AAA game I bought was Quake Wars or Prey.
    And that is why, I am sorry to say, your opinion doesn't matter on this subject. I don't mean to be insulting, but think about it this way: The indie devs are already trying to support linux where they can. But do you think EA or Activision (or even Valve :p) give a rat's ass about someone who doesn't want to play their games?

    The issue is: Most PC gamers DO like the AAA titles (even if they want to pretend they don't). Maybe we say how much we think the recent CoD games are unimaginative, but it is hard to deny they are fun (it is just a matter of price). I doubt anyone here doesn't like a good Bioware RPG (so not DA2 :p). And the problem with transitioning is that we want to play THOSE games in addition to Dredmore and SPAZ.
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  3. #223
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    That doesn't exclude them from being able to or actually having long term goals.
    But that's my point - you can't accuse a company of being short-sighted when they clearly have a long-term goal and are coming up with ways to accomplish that... and the proposed goal here is that Microsoft controls all software distribution for the Windows platform. Even in 10 years I don't see that happening or even being overly beneficial, and 10 years is a long time.

  4. #224
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    You seem to be treating it as some sort of slur rather than a matter of fact acknowledgement of how, since Jensen and Meckling seeded the idea and it progressively became the adopted norm, maximising shareholder value in the short term is the way in which a public corporation has to be run.

    They are required to be short sighted. It isn't an accusation, it isn't a slur, it doesn't exclude them from having a vision, it is an unfortunate matter of how our economic world is.
    Last edited by RobF; 30-07-2012 at 04:45 AM.
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  5. #225
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    And they also tend to have VERY strong opinions. The kind who are pretty much impossible to please. So probably not the best selling point :p
    Also works in describing PC gamers compared to Console gamers. ;)
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  6. #226
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Also works in describing PC gamers compared to Console gamers. ;)
    Sadly, yes. Console gamers at least tend to have the brand loyalty aspect that will make them overlook slight flaws/imperfections/differences of opinion. PC gamers don't even have that, so we tend to freak out and threaten to boycott over something as trivial as Adam Jensen wearing boots instead of sneakers.

    In some cases, it is because we do know better (many people disliked UT2k4, UT3, and Halo because of poor level design. This is because Unreal and UT had such great level design), but a lot of times it is just sheer and utter asshattery or prejudice (the usual "This was on a console so it is garbage" argument).
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  7. #227
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    I should have put the weasel word "many" in there.
    Show me this 'many'. What kind of market share % are we talking?
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  8. #228
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Console gamers at least tend to have the brand loyalty aspect
    And by that you mean they're a captive audience that must justify their lack of options through a rabid defense of their situation.
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  9. #229
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    And by that you mean they're a captive audience that must justify their lack of options through a rabid defense of their situation.
    The counter-argument, of course, being "Well, I really wish they had given Drake super-powers, but they seem to know what they are doing. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt"

    Not saying that is always the best (or even a good) approach, but I am sure you can understand how a publisher might favor the crowd that will at least give a game a shot before saying how much they hate it (so long as it is on their console of choice :p).
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  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    But people are itching to switch to Linux, many have two systems in dual boot.
    Lack of users, sheesh. Why do you think humble indie bundles provide Linux versions ? Because there's demand for it. Many Kickstarter projects have Linux versions as well.

    I'm not going to stay here and argue, facts will speak for themselves.
    The facts do speak for themselves. Only tiny low budget games and 'moral' sales like the humble bundle bother porting to Linux. No one is particularly interested in it, in fact I would say somewhere around 95% of the population has never even heard of it. A significant proportion of users try and and then decide never again.

    The facts speak for themselves and they are pretty damning against Linux. Valve are only interested in it because they see the competition they going to face in Windows 8, a built in MS store that WILL have the latest games on, possibly even denying them from Steam itself. Valve don't hate Windows 8, they hate competition and having to spend money on advertising.

    They are very concerned that Xbox on pc could destroy Steam. Especially if the rumours are true (they won't be) that the next Xbox really is just pc hardware and ports would be a piece of cake.

    And I'm not itching to use Linux. I'm dreading that we may be losing Windows at some point in the future. Then I will be forced to use Linux.

  11. #231
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Not saying that is always the best (or even a good) approach, but I am sure you can understand how a publisher might favor the crowd that will at least give a game a shot before saying how much they hate it (so long as it is on their console of choice :p).
    I can understand how a publisher can exploit a development ghetto in which people have to accept their lot, lest they admit that they wasted money on the console itself.

    I make enough concessions in the political arena; I don't need to do so with my entertainment.
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  12. #232
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I can understand how a publisher can exploit a development ghetto in which people have to accept their lot, lest they admit that they wasted money on the console itself.

    I make enough concessions in the political arena; I don't need to do so with my entertainment.
    As long as we are on the same page. Admittedly, yours is much angrier and cynical, whereas mine has unicorns pooping out hypnotoads.
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  13. #233
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    As long as we are on the same page. Admittedly, yours is much angrier and cynical, whereas mine has unicorns pooping out hypnotoads.
    The hypontoads cause acute hepatic failure if you lick them too much. The anger just leads to hypertension.

  14. #234
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Curioser and curioser:

    The Valve Linux Team breaks it down on their shiny new blog: With an Nvidia GTX 680, Intel i7-3930k, and 32GB of RAM, Windows 7 and DirectX, Left 4 Dead 2 maxes out at 270.6 fps. With the same hardware, but different software — Ubuntu 12.04 and OpenGL — L4D2 scores 315 fps, almost 20% faster than Windows.

    These figures are remarkable, considering Valve has been refining the Source engine’s performance under Windows for almost 10 years, while the Valve Linux team has only been working on the Linux port of Source for a few months. Valve attributes the speed-up to the “underlying efficiency of the [Linux] kernel and OpenGL.”

    (...)

    But here’s the best bit: Using these new OpenGL optimizations, the OpenGL version of L4D2 on Windows is now faster than the DirectX version. With the same hardware, Windows 7/OpenGL/L4D2 clocks in at 303.4 fps — compared to Windows 7/DirectX/L4D2 at 270.6 fps. In short: OpenGL is faster than DirectX.

    As for why OpenGL is faster than DirectX/Direct3D, the simple answer is that OpenGL seems to have a smoother, more efficient pipeline. At 303.4 fps, OpenGL is rendering a frame every 3.29 milliseconds; at 270.6 fps, DirectX is rendering a frame in 3.69 milliseconds. That 0.4 millisecond difference is down to how fast the DirectX pipeline can process and draw 3D data.
    http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/13...ven-on-windows
    (Emphasis mine)
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  15. #235
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    That's a very specific case and to be honest 270 vs 315 fps doesn't matter much.

  16. #236
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    That's a very specific case and to be honest 270 vs 315 fps doesn't matter much.
    idk, a 16% improvement seems pretty snazzy to me with only a few months of work having been done.

    People spend hundreds on gfx card/cpu upgrades to get 16% more fraps, if they could do that with a free OS download, thats good right?

  17. #237
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    To be fair, it doesn't require Linux, they also experienced a performance boost in OpenGL on Windows 7. And they also want to check how it's done and bring the improvement back to Windows DirectX implementation.

    But it's an interesting development. "Everyone knows" that DirectX (or Direct3D) is better than OpenGL ? Maybe you shouldn't take it for granted.
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  18. #238
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    NOTE: If someone who actually does graphics can confirm or refute me, that would be graet

    To my understanding, the big advantages of newer DirectX versions has to do with fancy shaders (mathematical algorithms applied to the data loaded into the GPU's memory) and helper functions. So saying "DirectX is better than OpenGL" usually has to do with usability arguments.

    This reminds me of arguments for and against C++/C/Fortran. Yes, each language has an inherent ranking in terms of performance (Fortran has higher performance than C which has higher performance than C++), but it all boils down to what you are doing, how you are doing it, and how long it takes you to do it. Which is why almost everything is coded in C++ if it is an option :p
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  19. #239
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    According to John Carmack DirectX is now better than OpenGL and inertia is the only thing keeping id Tech 5 games on OGL.

  20. #240
    Network Hub KauhuK's Avatar
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    As nice as the idea of gaming on linux is it will take time before enough games are coming to it to make people change their operating system. At first it will be valves own games making it to linux with steam but I have so many games on steam that it's not enough to make me change to linux entirely. It would be good though if opengl get's more attention and use.

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