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  1. #1
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    6.84 changelog - Icefrog goes mad.

    http://www.dota2.com/684/

    Holy frak.

    - in general, I like this patch a lot. A LOT of sensibility and standardisation has FINALLY taken place. Dota's needed it for years.

    - passives, silences, hexes, item slot usage now has a lot of sane thought behind it. No more "why did this work but not that?"

    - for those of us who play supports also, both wards stack in one slot now. Double clicking switches between the two. AND ATTACKS ON WARDS DONT MISS ANY MORE! ABOUT GODAMN TIME!

    - a lot of new items...a lot. 6.84a will come pretty damn quick to balance a few of them out.

    - casual cloak is now worth the investment

    - so many HoN like changes; I approve.

    My favourite hero change: alchemist can now cast aghanim's sceptre to directly grant any allied hero all aghanim's sceptre bonuses as a buff (the hero upgrade and the stat upgrade). The sceptre is consumed in the process. Multiple instances of this buff do not stack. Alchemist can target himself as well.

    xD
    Last edited by khaz; 28-04-2015 at 07:12 AM.

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I dunno, DotA is like football(dear yanks, it's not called soccer) or wrestling entertainment (ie not just real grappling) the refereeing is intentionally fallible, you can't insist your favourite is the best and maintain your credibility without some excuses.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  3. #3
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    Helio - what?

  4. #4
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    He probably found Icefrogs stash.

  5. #5
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    1. Centaur Aghanim makes the whole team Batriders for 4 seconds, with 70% damage reduction. Gandalf Charge with Kotl into Roshan Pit now possible.
    2. Invoker at Level 24/25 has free Ravage on 30+ seconds cooldown.

    3. Luna's Aghanim Eclipse is very good at breaking high-ground sieges. (3k cast range, goodbye enemy supports.)
    Just cast Eclipse in an area you know enemy heroes will stand behind the enemy towers to wreck havoc and take the time to attack their base.
    Then drop your Aghanim Scepter and equip your Refresher Orb, Refresh, pick up Aghanim, do it again. Drop Aghanim, equip your 6th slot luxury item and continue attacking. (Courier Management is needed, of course.)

    4. Octarine Core + Bristleback/Leshrac/Timbersaw. (The spell lifesteal is a bonus, the cooldown reduction is the monster.)

    5. Necrobook Level 1/2 buffs makes Lycan push even faster early on. Vlads, Boots, Necrobook, push.

    6. Alchemist all game, every game confirmed. Bounty Runes camped by whole team every game. 400 gold. In lower MMR games (1k-2k), it would be hilarious to find an Alchemist taking both runes.


    Last edited by fenghuang; 28-04-2015 at 10:18 AM.

  6. #6
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    - Aghanims is a huge waste on Luna though. She has to reach a stage where she can manfight an entire enemy team and destroy bases. You won't get that with aghanims.

    - Beastmaster is a strong offlane and mid solo pick now again I feel.

    - DK's damage reduction will see him picked up again too. With two equally matched solos, a well timed dragon breath means they won't be able to effectively last hit at all.

    - supports got a huge buff all around this patch

    - i like the gold and xp changes

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    Helio - what?
    Making DoTA balanced is probably going to create more unrest than keeping the sticky layer of Minutiae, keep all that bull and it's harder for anyone to honestly know what's the best 'jungling tank' or whatever the kids worry about these days.

    As soon as you draw parity between the characters you help align criticism that you are unbalanced, slowly you weave through the strata of causes and by default making the characters more and more generic.

    Death by degrees for a multiplayer game.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  8. #8
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    Ahh, you misunderstand. I've been playing since the early version on WC3.

    DotA's never been about balancing it; its always been about the flow of a game. A game which champions asymmetrical design, rng and other non-quantifiable facets of multiplayer design will never be balanced. Its always been a question of flow and whether players like it or not.

    The previous patch got the flow very sharp as opposed to smooth so this is an attempt to correct those turns.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    My favourite hero change: alchemist can now cast aghanim's sceptre to directly grant any allied hero all aghanim's sceptre bonuses as a buff (the hero upgrade and the stat upgrade). The sceptre is consumed in the process. Multiple instances of this buff do not stack. Alchemist can target himself as well.
    That is the strangest Dota ability now IMO.

    Huge list of changes, it seems like most major patches, almost all the heroes have been buffed. Except some like Troll, but he wasn't nerfed the way that I expected. Just a minor nerf maybe. The ulti duration decrease is nice though.

    They completely changed Ursa's ultimate it seems..... and it's much more effective for him. 80% damage reduction lmao, that's perfect for him

    Gonna take a look at the new items now. An Enchanted Mango? That is hilarious lmao....

    That Silver Edge is pretty cool, provides a way to make a Shadow Blade Build + Manta Build + Sange abilities, that fits my style of play really well with Ursa. Two slots I usually use Shadow Blade + S&Y, this gives all of the above + Manta ability, with slightly less move speed bonus, for the same two slots, pretty cool.
    Upgraded Boots of Travel
    Boots of Travel can now be upgraded by purchasing the recipe again. Allows you to target and teleport to allied heroes
    That's.... hilarious

    I abuse TP boots quite a lot
    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    Helio - what?
    The less you know about a game, the more self-important your commentary will be, didn't you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Making DoTA balanced is probably going to create more unrest than keeping the sticky layer of Minutiae, keep all that bull and it's harder for anyone to honestly know what's the best 'jungling tank' or whatever the kids worry about these days.

    As soon as you draw parity between the characters you help align criticism that you are unbalanced, slowly you weave through the strata of causes and by default making the characters more and more generic.

    Death by degrees for a multiplayer game.
    Is there a point to this post? Besides... not having one? None of the patches even remotely draw parity between the characters any more than the game started with.

    Even since the days of StarCraft competitive scene, the actual players and developers understand there is no such thing as perfect balance in a game. It's necessary to constantly make changes, because players will adapt to each patch while they slowly move towards most effective hero combinations or strategies. Without patch changes the game is reduced to the fraction of the game that people learned to work best over too long a period of time.

    That's why patching in a game like StarCraft 2 or Dota 2 is important. Changing the game one way, and then another, is important in keeping balance in a competitive strategy game. It asks players to create new strategies again, rather than rely on what they learned to work maybe too well in the previous few months.

    There is no perfect balance in a strategy game, and neither in a MOBA. Games like Dota and StarCraft are about providing a play arena in which the games may not be perfectly balanced, but players will always feel like the game still provides a way to win if they approached their setup or performed their execution a little differently.

    But you know as a forumite and infrequent player, you know best of course.
    Last edited by rockman29; 28-04-2015 at 01:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    Ahh, you misunderstand. I've been playing since the early version on WC3.

    DotA's never been about balancing it; its always been about the flow of a game. A game which champions asymmetrical design, rng and other non-quantifiable facets of multiplayer design will never be balanced. Its always been a question of flow and whether players like it or not.

    The previous patch got the flow very sharp as opposed to smooth so this is an attempt to correct those turns.
    If so, that's brilliant. I used to play old WC3 DotA as well, but never jumped on the Valve version, I'm from a strategy game background and I kinda see DotA through that filter, especially with DotA trying to be an E-Sport, I assumed balance was a big deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    StarCraft: Without patch changes the game is reduced to the fraction of the game that people learned to work best over too long a period of time.
    I'd argue that Starcraft 2 already swan dived into that niche irretrievably, lets see what the Legacy of the Void brings though.

    @rockman, I played WC3 mods a lot, and for years, I just never picked up DotA 2 after suffering a bad MOBAesque burnout from a few games with a similar structure (Savage: The Battle for Newerth, Natural Selection, Battlezone 2), and despite DotA's differences I mentally grouped it within the same set of games which put you very much at the mercy of your peers and attrition based gameplay.

    I know it might not be compatible with your world view but could you restrain yourself from talking to me like I'm suffering limited frontal lobe activity.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 28-04-2015 at 01:40 PM.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    StarCraft 2 falls into that trap much more often. Gameplay patches are far less frequent, and it has many fewer options as far as pre-match planning and decision making goes. Despite the skill ceiling being much, much higher than Dota. It's a different game, and one I'm not even very good at.
    @rockman, I played WC3 mods a lot, and for years, I just never picked up DotA 2 after suffering a bad MOBAesque burnout from a few games with a similar structure (Savage: The Battle for Newerth, Natural Selection, Battlezone 2), and despite DotA's differences I mentally grouped it within the same set of games which put you very much at the mercy of your peers and attrition based gameplay.
    Likening Dota to all these games is I don't know... rather misdirected and reductionist perhaps. WarCraft 3 mods ranged from Tower Defense to Life of a Peasant to silly ARPGs or Marine Arena or even LOTR fantasy battles. Citing a few games with strategy components doesn't make me an expert on StarCraft 2. Neither would it make me informed about Dota.

    I know it might not be compatible with your world view but could you restrain yourself from talking to me like I'm suffering limited frontal lobe activity.
    This thread is about a major patch to Dota in which I have not seen so many changes tbh, or as many item additions.

    And in this thread, you're saying that Dota characters are inevitably going to become generic, because of balance changes and patches, while the audience fights amongst themselves about what is "best" while also claiming that the game will slowly be dying as a multiplayer game because of it. At the same time, you are supplying the most generic input yourself that is completely non-specific to this patch or even to this game.

    If you want to make such an argument, then you should provide something more substantial than what you provided. It's your responsibility to support claims you are making.

    Don't blame others for simply pointing out your own failure to support your own statements. If you find it too challenging to produce thoughtful feedback in a thread, or are frightened that someone might challenge the content in your posts, that is not someone else's problem.
    Last edited by rockman29; 28-04-2015 at 02:08 PM.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I'm blaming you for being wilfully insulting, khaz called my lack of accuracy out without attacking my character. You seem to be unable to behave similarly.

    Indeed, it's hard to support any claims about what is best for the health of a multiplayer community, the microcosm simply doesn't have enough data which is relevant, but games thrive and games die, often perfectly well made games communities implode because the social meta simply isn't very interesting. I've always found the games that sustained the healthiest communities either by cause or effect were the same games which had unclear best ways. The moment an ideal is found, the actual "play" is squashed out somewhat, while I'm not experienced with DotA2, DotA the WC3 mod was a slowly teetering pile of half formed ideas that frequently modders would try and codify into perfect or balanced editions, then people would go back to the weird unbalanced broken one, because... eh, it just had more means of expression. When khaz tells me that is the path that DotA is taking I let out a little silent cheer and added it to my list of things to install when my PC case is finally delivered... If it doesn't arrive soon I may just build my PC on the floor in desperation (this would be bad).

    Indeed, just as quickly as khaz talked me around, you reminded me of the caustic and fiercely defensive nature of the pubic community in MOBAS, better go and find a play group.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 28-04-2015 at 03:06 PM.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Mod note: this is now the second time I need to interrupt my holiday to explain that these forums operate on the basis of mutual respect. there will not be a third

  14. #14
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    Have a nice holiday


  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Enchanted mangos
    Do we put that on a game that says that there are people falling out of windows and when they hit the ground we kill them and we say that is a Fallout and they are falling out of cars

  16. #16
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    Attacks on wards missing was one of the most unpleasant things about playing support. You are sitting there in the river, in plain view of the opposing team, and you just KNOW that they are about to descend on you.

  17. #17
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    Witch Doctor with Glimmer Cape is pretty interesting against the right lineups. Because nobody would expect to buy dust/sentries/gem if your other 4 heroes do not have invis skills.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Gonna take some time to get my head around the new items. They're all quite complex. GIve supports more to build though which I always approve of.

    Also as a frequent Bane, he's going to be too good with that changelog. Brian sap cost reduction by a fifth is huge, and being able to control nightmare makes it a minium 4 second stun with very little draw back. That will make him easy one of the top 5 most powerful early game heroes by some degree.

    Sniper, Troll, and Juggernaut all nerfed, which is very much needed. Blade Fury cool down change in particular is welcome. Fuck perpetual spinning Juggernauts forever.
    Last edited by sonson; 28-04-2015 at 09:17 PM.
    Do we put that on a game that says that there are people falling out of windows and when they hit the ground we kill them and we say that is a Fallout and they are falling out of cars

  19. #19
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    Fenghuang, stealthing from shadow amulet or shadow blade already doesn't interrupt channelling (you just can't activate either after starting channeling or you interrupt it).

    Easier to do with amulet as it has longer fade time.
    Use Shadow amulet, blink to position and start dancing, you'll stealth while channeling it (this is at least how it works for crystal maiden and i'd presume it works the same for WD)

    EDIT: ofc I don't mean you shouldn't upgrade to the cape, it'll be great to be able to get all that sweet magic resistance and chance to move in stealth for 5 secs (and option to give that to someone else).
    Last edited by Graerth; 28-04-2015 at 11:40 PM.

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenghuang View Post
    Witch Doctor with Glimmer Cape is pretty interesting against the right lineups. Because nobody would expect to buy dust/sentries/gem if your other 4 heroes do not have invis skills.
    Invis Death Ward with Shadowblade is already a (incredibly scummy) thing. Ditto with CM and her ulti. I've done it a few times but always felt bad afterwards.

    You'd have to be having a balling game as WD to afford Aghs and Shadowblade and everything else a support should be buying, as invis Death Ward is no-where near as good as Aghs Death Ward.

    If you have 7000 gold as WD it would be a strange game where you're getting that many kills and not winning enough to make Shadowbalde as anything other than a troll item.

    Casting Glimmer cape would however be a good way of *stopping* a WD Death Warding if you can't otherwise do so from afar.
    Last edited by sonson; 29-04-2015 at 09:49 AM.
    Do we put that on a game that says that there are people falling out of windows and when they hit the ground we kill them and we say that is a Fallout and they are falling out of cars

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