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  1. #641
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    A friend found this in a pub.


  2. #642
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    Disruptor carry best carry.

    :c

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira- View Post
    This is the only one I'd say that could be your fault as a support, actually. Babysitting doesn't mean you can't find farm. Learn the art of stacking and pulling (or double-pulling). Your carry will have easier time to farm and you'll get something out of it too. Win-win.
    What's a Radiant support to do in the hard lane? Short of quelling with that one camp across the river, I don't know any pulls there.

  3. #643
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly.by.design View Post
    What's a Radiant support to do in the hard lane? Short of quelling with that one camp across the river, I don't know any pulls there.
    True that, that's the only one. I was assuming safe lane support. Anyhow, unless your carry is extremely able you should be able to get a last hit here and there. Not much, but something still.

  4. #644
    Network Hub Stirbelwurm's Avatar
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    You know, the way I read it, was that Battlehenky was support top and was supposed to ward bot, which you can't really expect, since wards are more often than not used on one side of the map for the first 6 min.
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  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Stirbelwurm View Post
    You know, the way I read it, was that Battlehenky was support top and was supposed to ward bot, which you can't really expect, since wards are more often than not used on one side of the map for the first 6 min.
    One chocolate chip cookie for you good sir, despite blasphemously distorting my name. I was indeed talking about being a safe lane support. For Radiant the opposite locations are true. It sounds cringeworthy, but I've had that exact nonsense thrown at me more often than I would like.

    That said, I agree wholeheartedly with you though Kaira- and this is exactly how any remotely decent support players should play. Trouble is you just don't find them in the normal skill bracket. In 300+ games I have literally never seen another player stack creep camps for a carry. Can't wait to get into the high bracket.

    Pakoito's pretty picture illustrates perfectly how a fantastic support hero becomes dead weight because the player controlling it believes the most valuable he can be is by acquiring damage items in pretending to be a carry. I still have to laugh about his items compared to the SK though.
    Last edited by Battlehenkie; 15-09-2013 at 07:31 PM.

  6. #646
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    I have to admit -- I think I'm a decent babysitting/safe lane support, but not a great stacking/trilane support. I've played ~120 'real' games (i.e., not coop bot) and the timing of it all still eludes me. It would probably only take a few games of deliberately practicing, but it just hasn't happened.

    In other support news, I totally bombed an All Random game as Io. I tried neat things, but made stupid mistakes like forgetting to tether, forgetting to un-tether, etc. I played a few bot games to practice Io's mechanics so it doesn't happen again. Still -- while I see how great he can be, there are many supports that come much more naturally to me. I seem to do best with supports that can disable or stun, as that keeps me from being an easy kill.

  7. #647
    To be fair, trilanes never happen in normal bracket and I don't think they really should either. With creep stacking the golden rule is x:53. If you're around the jungle and don't have to pull the camp into your creep wave at the x:46 mark it's well worth it to just stack a camp. Just pull a mob at :53 and walk away in the straightest line possible so you make sure the creeps following you won't in range of the camp they come from and thus block a new spawn.

    Io takes a lot of getting used too but is immensely powerful when you get the hang of him. I made the same mistakes playing my first couple games, using relocate with my carry.. then forgetting to untether and porting him back. I don't think there's any shame in it, especially when you're putting in the time to learn him, which I think is well worth it.

  8. #648
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlehenkie View Post
    To be fair, trilanes never happen in normal bracket and I don't think they really should either. With creep stacking the golden rule is x:53. If you're around the jungle and don't have to pull the camp into your creep wave at the x:46 mark it's well worth it to just stack a camp. Just pull a mob at :53 and walk away in the straightest line possible so you make sure the creeps following you won't in range of the camp they come from and thus block a new spawn.
    Yeah, but you can (and should in most cases) stack the pull camp if you're playing support on the safe lane. Pull the wave, denying experience and money from the enemies on the lane, get yourself some farm and experience. If you haven't stacked, you can try a double-pull (Radiant and Dire) or triple pull (Radiant), but the timing can be hard, especially with satyr camps. You shouldn't do pulls without stacked camps/double pulls, since you'll just end up pushing the lane. Though of course this assumes that you can leave your carry for ~20s alone in the lane, which isn't a given if the enemies are playing aggressively and you haven't asserted dominance on the lane yet.

  9. #649
    Network Hub grasskit's Avatar
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    unless ofc you want to actually push the lane, then you pull without stacking. also to practice the timings and whatnot just fire up practice lobby. its generally a good way to practice certain mechanics or hero skill combos and whatnot (remember to enable cheat mode so you can give yourself levels, gold etc. if needed).
    recently ive been practicing meepo in lobby, trying to pull off the blink poof combo and its not that hard actually. playing him in a real game is another thing entirely of course, where the team has to be on board with your pick , since you need to get lvl6 as fast as possible.

  10. #650
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grasskit View Post
    unless ofc you want to actually push the lane, then you pull without stacking.
    Of course, true that. I just ramble a bit and forget all these side things so details get lost. But yeah, sometimes you might want to push the lane.

    Also, stacking the pull camp before 3:00 is really good, since it'll allow you to deny the first siege creep wave.

    Also, what you said about practice lobby is totally true. I've been doing it a lot more lately (especially when trying to get some kind of grasp on how to play Io).

  11. #651
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    It's one of the many reasons trilanes have become more prominent, a hard lane support + carry duo just can't get anything done most of the time (very few exceptions), unless the enemy is bad... but then the enemy being bad won you the game.

    If the enemy is really good 2 of you will sit there getting no xp or gold.

    Playing supports a life of learning to live with no items really, force staff is a luxury; especially in the 5 slot, I'd build for something that gives survivability, if your doing well then a Mek, if your not then just straight up bracer spam or something... if you don't instapop in fights and you live theres a good chance you'll survive long enough to build the big item you want instead of dying alot and still being broke at the 30 min mark.

    You need to find a way of making some extra cash as best you can, be part of lots of ganks, push towers (a t1 tower early game really helps a support with gold income as its a free set of wards basically). At times when that extra cash isn't available... you need to have a backup build that will be viable on a minimum gold income and still allow for warding.

    Also don't be the first into full on team fights, skirt around the edge using your skills as best you can to help out, too often I see a Crystal Maiden rushing in headlong infront of her initiator or carry just to get her frostbite off and then insta-die quoting "I did my bit"... no, no you didn't, let the initiator do there thing then follow up on it. (And yes I realise initiators in Pubs are bad and generally don't initiate, that's unfortunate but no more your fault that the Carry's fault for no wards being on the map).

    And theres also an art to ward placement, I would heavily heavily recommend the XVRogueGaming advanced guides to warding.

  12. #652
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenieD View Post
    And theres also an art to ward placement, I would heavily heavily recommend the XVRogueGaming advanced guides to warding.
    I think the most helpful part of that video series was breaking it down into Early/Mid/Late game phases. I knew most of the spots already, but it helped to explain the differences in when to ward certain places and for what reasons.

    I've been playing almost exclusively with a RL friend of mine lately, and our win rate has been around 80%. MMR decided to lay some hurt on us yesterday, though. We added a friend to our party to be 3, and I now see why we got stomped so hard. The opposing 3-stack appears to play together quite often, had an Invoker named Smurfette, and rolled us pretty hard.

    We dropped back down to the two of us for the next game. My lane as Troll w/ Kotl went really, really well. My friend as Puck in mid lane, however, was getting outplayed by an aggressive OD, and top lane was getting stomped. Top lane fed so hard that their Bounty Hunter had a Battle Fury at 15 mins and a Demon Edge soon after. He ended the game with 28 kills, Bfury, MKB, Desolator and a freakin' Rapier.

    So, I'm hoping MMR's desire for blood has been sated, and that we'll stop being matched into stomps.
    Last edited by deadly.by.design; 16-09-2013 at 04:58 PM.

  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly.by.design View Post
    I think the most helpful part of that video series was breaking it down into Early/Mid/Late game phases. I knew most of the spots already, but it helped to explain the differences in when to ward certain places and for what reasons.

    I've been playing almost exclusively with a RL friend of mine lately, and our win rate has been around 80%. MMR decided to lay some hurt on us yesterday, though. We added a friend to our party to be 3, and I now see why we got stomped so hard. The opposing 3-stack appears to play together quite often, had an Invoker named Smurfette, and rolled us pretty hard.

    We dropped back down to the two of us for the next game. My lane as Troll w/ Kotl went really, really well. My friend as Puck in mid lane, however, was getting outplayed by an aggressive OD, and top lane was getting stomped. Top lane fed so hard that their Bounty Hunter had a Battle Fury at 15 mins and a Demon Edge soon after. He ended the game with 28 kills, Bfury, MKB, Desolator and a freakin' Rapier.

    So, I'm hoping MMR's desire for blood has been sated, and that we'll stop being matched into stomps.
    Bounty with a BF... /shakes head disapprovingly/ as for the OD, hes pretty hard to play vs mid, I think he needs a duration nerf on his space prison debuff but meh... If you fancy out laning him you should get your friend to practise mid kunkka or mid Pugna

  14. #654
    Lesser Hivemind Node Jiiiiim's Avatar
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    Can you elaborate a big on Pugna there? I get that Kunkka's harass is completely mana independent and losing INT won't hurt his last-hitting, but wouldn't it will hurt Pugna's, as well as removing his ability to cast spells? Or is the idea that you have a netherward down at all times so he can't do nothing, or spam netherblast, or god I don't know.

  15. #655
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiiiiim View Post
    Can you elaborate a big on Pugna there? I get that Kunkka's harass is completely mana independent and losing INT won't hurt his last-hitting, but wouldn't it will hurt Pugna's, as well as removing his ability to cast spells? Or is the idea that you have a netherward down at all times so he can't do nothing, or spam netherblast, or god I don't know.
    Pugna's Ward counts OD's orb attack as a spell, so that would do some damage. He also gains more INT than OD, so his ult wouldn't do as much to him. Still, I'd think OD's INT steal could be a big pain if he catches Pugna too often. Play it safe, zone him out and use nether ward to counter-punish him, I guess?

  16. #656
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly.by.design View Post
    He also gains more INT than OD, so his ult wouldn't do as much to him.
    So long as his int does stay above, OD's ult will do nothing. It only does damage when he has higher int (I'm 95% sure of this). OD himself is a glass cannon. Silence him and he's greatly reduced in power.
    Powered by Steam. And biscuits. I'm also a twit and dabble in creative writing.

  17. #657
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenieD View Post
    as for the OD, hes pretty hard to play vs mid, I think he needs a duration nerf on his space prison debuff but meh...

    IIRC there's a bug with the prison debuff that it doesn't recover mana when the duration ends, which makes the debuff so much more powerful against mana-starved mids.

    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    OD himself is a glass cannon. Silence him and he's greatly reduced in power.
    Silence, any kind of kiteing and BKB's. These will make OD cry.

  18. #658
    Network Hub Wyhx's Avatar
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    Just finished a team game. We won for the first time ever. Here's the stats: http://dotabuff.com/matches/312370587
    Best druid game I ever had But how exactly does team matchmaking work? Because any other time we try we get stomped.

  19. #659
    Network Hub Wyhx's Avatar
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    And yes, I know we suck Any build advice etc. would be appreciated.

  20. #660
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Carry vengeful spirit wat

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