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  1. #961
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graerth View Post
    When people speak of "Rating i expected", what kinda numbers we talking here? 2k 3k 4k 5k?
    I began playing just over a year ago as a noob to the genre and am still under 250 matches, so I'm okay with my modest Team MMR of ~2,850.

    The RL friend I play most matches with has ~200 more in-game hours than me, and I see why he he's ranked 150-200pts higher. I haven't done enough solo queue matches to have a score for that yet. I also now know why RPSers with 4k+ MMR aren't exactly cruising for 2k teammates. While I've improved markedly over the past few months, there's still that needs to become second nature for me. Things like taking the safe path through the jungle when the enemy was spotted across the river, which I used to not think about.
    Last edited by deadly.by.design; 09-01-2014 at 03:21 PM.

  2. #962
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    Following on from my previous post, here is a perfect example of a push strat that could not have gone any better

    http://dotabuff.com/matches/460681624

    Really nice dotabuff feature I never noticed before - you can see the pick ban order for the game. I picked captain but it was more of a consensus decision on all the bans bar the Mirana and Prophet. I got rid of the Mirana because her ultimate is extremely effective in pub games and can give the other team perfect set up when you're fighting under their tower. Prophet is obvious - dealing with split pushing is very annoying when you're trying to 5 man deathball all their towers. Tinker and Undying are extremely effective at stopping 5 man pushes and Gyro's flak cannon and calldown are not something you want to be walking into.

    From about 8 minutes onwards we pushed as 5 non stop and we had all the outer towers and were taking rax about 12 minutes later.

    The enemy went double midas which really accomplished nothing but to piss me off by eating my Chen creeps and meant they had no useful items on their core heroes when we were pushing into their base.

    The Dire banned out Luna and CM once they realised what we were doing which was pretty smart, we wanted the Luna but settled for DK instead, and CM's aura is one of the best abilities for forcing early towers, especially if we went with the necrolyte which we were considering.

    Apart from the double midas, Dire really let themselves down with a dual mid of alchemist / lion, the alchemist took greevils greed first which really defeats the objective of a dual mid as they couldn't get kills on the death prophet because of it and they suffered an xp disadvantage as a result. The offlane was a combo of bristle / Dazzle with no levels in Shallow Grave / Bristleback passive so we were free to kill the dazzle at will.
    I'll Sproink you out m8

  3. #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialSoup View Post
    Following on from my previous post, here is a perfect example of a push strat that could not have gone any better

    http://dotabuff.com/matches/460681624


    Apart from the double midas, Dire really let themselves down with a dual mid of alchemist / lion, the alchemist took greevils greed first which really defeats the objective of a dual mid as they couldn't get kills on the death prophet because of it and they suffered an xp disadvantage as a result. The offlane was a combo of bristle / Dazzle with no levels in Shallow Grave / Bristleback passive so we were free to kill the dazzle at will.
    Yeh that mid combo wasn't great I was explaining to Oshid today at work what I was doing with them, I just played a game with Lion where he would try to attack me then lose sight up the ramp, then as he stopped to turn around I'd auto attack him once and throw out a wave that would kill 2-3 creeps I'd been working down and hit both him and Alche, after doing that even once he couldn't contest me for farm and harassing the both of them with waves and attacks. Gutted I couldn't get more denies but I managed to throw them off their last hitting alot with attacks at odd times and faking the wave animation so they'd move to the side and miss the last hit then I'd wave them when they came back in

    It was realistically over once they went double Midas imo but also they lost a team fight badly as we took their top T1 and it gave us a free T2 tower too without any contention, the gold lead was huge at that point I imagine.

    I finished that game with something like 7.5k in the bank and was just too lazy to go build another item.

  4. #964
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    Also to add that if they took hex and stun then acid and concoction straight away I'd of struggled more, also they should have contested runes instead of letting me fill a bottle up with DP every 2 minutes, the regen rune really hurt them I killed them both with the spam from that.

  5. #965
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    So after the weekend I'm fast coming to the conclusion that Death Prophet is over powered at the moment. Given any solo lane she gets to a really dangerous level and once she's slightly tanky she can wander about in a team fight pumping out carry levels of dps with ghosts and is fairly hard to kill, the silence has a great aoe / range and ridiculous cast point... Add to all this a fairly solid early game, she's no slouch.

  6. #966
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    I fully expect Bristle, Legion, Death Prophet and Slark to get taken down a few notches in the next patch.

  7. #967
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    I would agree on DP, Bristle and LC. They're almost never a bad pick in the CMs I've done lately. Haven't seen enough Slark in recent matches to concur, but you're probably right.

    Also, upon having a recollection of a particularly awful early game of mine with some fellow RPSers, I'd like to officially apologize for this match.
    Last edited by deadly.by.design; 13-01-2014 at 03:24 PM.

  8. #968
    Network Hub Stirbelwurm's Avatar
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    Well, it must have been really bad, if you still feel the need to apologize for it, even after 8 months
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  9. #969
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    What I don't get is why she was buffed, there was nothing wrong with the ghosts anyway; if it was to increase her push power then fine I can understand that but don't give that dmg vs heroes, 10 dmg per spirit is a huge buff to her.

    The other night I got focused in a team fight, had ghosts out already and while they focus'd me down my ghosts killed their CM and their Nyx, I survived the stun lock on about 50 hp and used a full charge wand... I got a quad kill and all 5 of them died, killing 2 heroes while being stun locked from the start feels a bit rediculous; CM's health bar couldn't decrease fast enough! To really rub it in my ulti then returned to me and I was full hp again!

    I think the PA crit on dagger change was stupid too, mainly cos my RNG is terrible and I never crit with it while I always get crit with it but she didn't need it, a 15% chance to do X isn't a big enough chance to make a reliable difference to last hitting etc... I just don't get it, if they wanted to buff her they should have given her .2 strength gain more or something.

    Slarks a weird hero now, if he gets ahead of the curve he's utterly devastating, bonkers and really hard to counter; if he's behind the curve then he's a bit like a fly buzzing about that no one cares about.

    I think we'll see LC's heal get an attack speed nerf, Death Prophet take a nerf to ghosts (probably something like like their attack speed or their chase distance - the amount of off screen kills you get is silly!) and Bristle probably either a 250 dmg cap to spike dmg or a dmg reduction nerf to his back protection (TBH if they made it so that when he's silenced he doesn't get the passive Quill that would be nice). Am hoping they will make Ghost Sceptre have component parts and stats on it (just like 2 iron branches and a bracer + recipe so its the same cost and it gives just the bracers stats + the active).

  10. #970
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirbelwurm View Post
    Well, it must have been really bad, if you still feel the need to apologize for it, even after 8 months
    Well, I'll put it this way... There were early games with good players where I learned a lot and contributed, but this was not one of them. The only learning I did in that match was through negative reinforcement and embarrassment. :\ But hey, I guess most new players learn that the hard way.

    On a side note, I think I should start focusing on a few heroes that are commonly played in CM. That would probably serve me better than the "whatever" pattern I've done for my first year. It was nice for general familiarity and trying to accommodate teams, but there are only a handful of heroes that I feel really at home with. Or is that normal, where most people gravitate toward certain heroes/roles and prefer to work toward their strengths? Or is flexibility more important?
    Last edited by deadly.by.design; 13-01-2014 at 05:32 PM.

  11. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenieD View Post
    I think the PA crit on dagger change was stupid too, mainly cos my RNG is terrible and I never crit with it while I always get crit with it but she didn't need it, a 15% chance to do X isn't a big enough chance to make a reliable difference to last hitting etc... I just don't get it, if they wanted to buff her they should have given her .2 strength gain more or something.
    PA was strong as hell before, and she's strong as hell now. Don't know what the rationale was but I can't complain about a buff to my favorite character.

  12. #972
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    I think you guys are over-exaggerating.

    Legion Commander is pretty balanced in the sense that she's a carry that takes a lot of farm to come online. Her one and only disable has a huge cooldown considering its a single-target disable and LC still has to get in close to do anything significant.

    Slark is reasonably balanced at the moment, he is a common pickup in competitive but requires a lineup to create space for him to at least get some core items before he can be a force. The problem with Slark is his weak ability at sieging towers effectively.

    Death Prophet is perfectly balanced at the moment. She's played as a carry or mid role but requires decent amount of items to be tanky enough to survive teamfights. As a carry, she also kind of falls off in lategame and is ideally used in a 25-35min strat to knock down early lanes.


    The only really overpowered hero at the moment is Earth Spirit because of his insane cast time, range and mana costs.
    He desperately needs nerfing because in higher level games, people are just instant picking him in All Pick modes to go roaming gank at Level 2 onwards and generally wrecking all lanes.

  13. #973
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    DP doesn't take that long to come online, I an be reasonably scary by 9 minutes (like 2 enemies vs me; they would run away most of the time) and by 14 minutes I'm going to be tanky enough to probably not worry about your burst to much, especially if we have a heal of some sorts (unless your running a seriously high burst line up). By 20 minutes your likely to be without exterior towers and I'm likely to have Bloodstone, BoT's and Heart. I'm not even what I would term a "good DP player".

    LC isn't amazing but its the fact that single target CC you mentioned should never be used as a CC, its a "hey they have 50 hp left, I'm full hp... DUEL!", if you get a few successful ganks off it gives ALOT of dmg away and accelerates her to silly levels of carry very fast, if she doesn't manage the duels then yeh shes a bit pants; her biggest issue I feel is where to put her, if you put her in the jungle (as most do) she has Axe's issue of running low on hp until about lvl 5-6 so a Bounty Hunter or Timbersaw could just wander over at lvl 4ish and burst you down without you having anything to say about it. Also she's very dependant on supports getting her into the fight early on. I'd like to see them make both her and the opponent immune to all external CC and dmg while in the fight, that'd be fun

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenieD View Post
    DP doesn't take that long to come online, I an be reasonably scary by 9 minutes (like 2 enemies vs me; they would run away most of the time) and by 14 minutes I'm going to be tanky enough to probably not worry about your burst to much, especially if we have a heal of some sorts (unless your running a seriously high burst line up). By 20 minutes your likely to be without exterior towers and I'm likely to have Bloodstone, BoT's and Heart. I'm not even what I would term a "good DP player".
    By 9 minutes? What role? Mid or carry? Also, what items by then?
    By 14 minutes? What items?

    If DP is as good as you say, teams will be picking her more often as a solo role or carry role.

    As it stands, DP now only works in a dedicated lineup designed for early pushes.

    Part of the problem of DP is that she is very weak when the opponents have capability to kill/gank. She is easily gankable and if she Exorcisms, its simply a matter for the opposing team to back off and engage again when Exorcism is on cooldown.

    DP excels against lineups without much burst or disables, both of which are very common the higher skill level you go.

    Just compare her winrates in the different skill levels and you will see that the higher you go, the lower DP's winrate is.
    Compare this to Earth Spirit or Wisp, which is the exact opposite.

  15. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenghuang View Post
    *Snip*
    Oh your points are totally valid, I think shes stronger in pub matches than proper games cos in normal games no one really ganks mid regularly. Mid btw, I hate her in a carry position unless its a solo lane. While I agree backing off from Exorcism is the idea its hard to do where if you do that she takes a tower then walks off, so every time her ulti is up you get the choice of fight or lose a tower.

    Bursts are a problem for DP but with the giant AoE silence (great cast point, nice range) and a team that has some sort of CC she can take people down fast enough that they could possibly burst her but would die to your team after, CC... well if ghosts are already out it doesn't make much difference as shes still attacking, it just reduces her dps a bit (arguably she is one of the best heroes while stunned for DPS (I can't think of anyone else that can out DPS her while stunned (possibly Lesh? would have to check).

    Wisp is a pita admittedly but with the common 5 man strat I feel Io has lost alot of its appeal, the ganks don't really happen now and its a very fragile hero without items, and without the stun on the tether alot of the combos are much reduced in their effectiveness.

    Generally by 9mins I would have Bottle, Arcane Boots and probably a Point Booster. I rush the bottle early on, usually start with tangos and 3 branches, bottle then brown boots. My aim mid is to get last hits, deny the opposition as much as possible and every wave I try to get 2 last hits and hit the enemy hero, if the enemy can't kill about 800-900 hp in about 4 seconds with no spells (silence if I see them coming, if I don't then as you say she suffers but shes fast (very) and I would try to get somewhere safe enough to pop ulti without getting stopped and then if they follow me thats their funeral) I'm going to kill the squishiest one, I'm then going to try to kill the next but there's a good chance he/she'll able get away if they have an escape.

    By 14mins I aim for my bloodstone, it comes up more likely at 16mins tbh but I've hit just before 14mins a fair few times; depends how other lanes go and how well mid can repel a push. It's not unusual to pop ulti at 5-6 mins in, take half of mid tower, using cash I have from wave clears pop in to a secret shop enroute to my safe lane to gank (usually via rune) and get a couple of assists / kills then take bot tower with ulti again. Then rotate back mid (should be there by about 9 mins - usually with the supports from the lane I just pushed) to take the tower and finish the items that I was on about before.

    At this point its time to take every T1 then 5 man the T2's down, if they lose a fight at any point they lose a T2 with no contest. Once the T2's are down it's blood stone and BoT's time usually. (If I get a few early charges from fights then the bottle goes to someone that needs it and I live with the BStone regen).

    After that its a heart then either Sheep or Shiva's dependant on what I'm up against, hell I've even gone desolator for a laugh a few times if we're already breaking base. Once Shiva's'/Sheep is up if we're not already raxxing people we have issues as I'm not far from fading out, time to build a refresher. Ulti, Silence, Wave, Sheep/Shiva's, refresh.. Silence, Wave, Sheep/Shiva's again; saving the Ulti for once that one runs out. Also in long games I like to get a Eul's if I'm on a budget cos the run speed is silly on her anyway and the disable is great especially if you can time with a silence, it breaks people like Antimage / QoP if your on point or if your needing a little time for the ulti to run out so you can regen to full hp mid gank you can euls yourself.

    The reason she doesn't have an escape though imo is that shes one of the fastest heroes in game and should be with 4 other people all the time after the 14 min mark.

  16. #976
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    As I said prior, your whole scenario relies on the ideas that
    1) Opponents lack burst or disables. While possible in lower skill games, the higher you go, the more "versatile" high impact heroes will be picked.
    2) Your mid farm is pretty much uncontested. Highly unlikely unless you are facing someone of significantly lower skill than you. DP does not exactly have the best last-hitting animation and there are certainly many other top-class solo mids that not only control runes or laning better, but also have way better survival. See: TA, QoP, Puck, Alchemist, Viper, Invoker, Magnus, Pugna, Slark, Lone Druid, Bloodseeker, OD.
    3) There will be many situations in higher skill games whereby the opponents can do 2 things:
    a) Try to initiate a gank on your sidelanes, force your DP to teleport over and waste your Exorcism.
    b) Sensing that your side is grouping up for a push on a tier-1, decides to leave a hero or no heroes to defend, while actively trying to trade your other 2 tier-1s.

    The problem with (a) for DP is that you are using DP as a 1st position farmer that needs her items to be effective, and that means that you will find it very hard to join early fights. This is coupled with the problem that DP lacks any real disables that can "keep" an enemy there. Silence is not really very effective and you likely will only have 1 or 2 levels in it, because you need to max Witchcraft to even be remotely able to dish out "burst" damage.
    Problem with (b) is that DP can hardly push alone and it is very easy for 2 opposing heroes just spamming AOE under tower early on to deter a solo DP push due to risk of being killed very easily. If you commit more heroes to a push with DP, the other problem arises in the fact that opponents can "trade" towers effectively and even allow their carries to catch up in uncontested farm.

    The whole idea in combating DP is as such:
    1) Pick her off early and she is no threat. Basically focus fire.
    2) If not possible to win a head on fight, try to trade towers and catch up on farm.
    3) Determining fight locations and backing off after an even trade or advantage trade on hero kills, if DP used her ulti, it would be easily wasted because she is nowhere near your towers.

    This is the exact same strategy to be employed against Shadow Shaman. The only difference? Shadow Shaman can easily be played as a support hero with not necessarily a ton of farm.
    DP requires sizable amounts of farm just to be able to withstand a dedicated focus fire.


    Note: I am not saying DP is a shitty hero or unviable as a solo mid. It is just that the nature of the current meta is that your solo mid hero has to be a hero that can make plays and be relevant as early as possible. This is why no teams ever run a 1st position as a solo mid like SF.
    SF's role is similar to DP here. High burst damage potential, weak survivability, requires a lot of farm, simply cannot join early fights.
    As it stands now, unless DP is played as a 1st position with a whole lineup built around 5-manning as quickly as possible, DP has to be played as a 3-role and putting her mid is only to get up that fast Arcane Boots and probably Mekansm, since she excels at flashfarming early on and mana is hardly an issue once DP has Bottle and Arcane.
    Last edited by fenghuang; 14-01-2014 at 06:06 PM.

  17. #977
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    Atleast Razor and Lesh have also dps while stunned.

    If being hit, also Axe, Bristleback, Centaur, Spectre and Viper atleast (not sure if LC retaliate worked in cc).

  18. #978
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
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    I've lost 12 of my last 14 matches, and I think it's time to take a few days off. Nothing seems to be going right in-game lately. Either my team does alright but we dink around and throw, or we have an awful game and I play worse out of frustration.

    It's like I mirror my team. When we communicate and know what we're doing, I play better. When it's like my last game where my team's first two picks are NP and Nyx and I am forced to play a hard 5, my skill feels like they're halved. (nyx/np dire offlane vs brood and they never bought sentries, gg)
    Last edited by deadly.by.design; 15-01-2014 at 03:40 PM.

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly.by.design View Post
    I've lost 12 of my last 14 matches, and I think it's time to take a few days off. Nothing seems to be going right in-game lately. Either my team does alright but we dink around and throw, or we have an awful game and I play worse out of frustration.

    It's like I mirror my team. When we communicate and know what we're doing, I play better. When it's like my last game where my team's first two picks are NP and Nyx and I am forced to play a hard 5, my skill feels like it's halved. (nyx/np dire offlane vs brood and they never bought sentries, gg)
    If NP is offlaning he really should be be solo. That doesn't sound like a fun game.
    I'll Sproink you out m8

  20. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graerth View Post
    Atleast Razor and Lesh have also dps while stunned.

    If being hit, also Axe, Bristleback, Centaur, Spectre and Viper atleast (not sure if LC retaliate worked in cc).
    Yeh I mentioned Lesh, your of course right on the others but its minimal DPS (apart from Axe / Bristle), Ghosts are her main form of dmg (DP) so her DPS probably drops by about 20% where as say Vipers drops by about 90%.

    As for the reply from fenghuang we'll just have to agree to disagree (BTW shes never a position 1 pick unless your running a strange pocket strat, I'd say she should be run as a 2, possibly even a 3 depending on team make up).

    --

    Had the worst game solo ranked last night, team all insta locked in supports, an offlaner and a mid so I thought "WOW that makes a change! We need a carry, not my normal position as of late but I'll do my best"... picked up N'aix. We were doing great until about 8 mins in (5:1 kills and we'd took a tower) where our 2/0/1 Bristleback offlaner DC'd, there was about a 10 minute pause waiting til we deemed he wasn't returning (sad times) and they initiated on the unpause to kill him and 3 of the others.

    My farm was still going well and at the 10 min mark I had Midas, Powertreads, Armlet and I got a double kill in the next team fight for most of my Deso... I was feeling super super fat but I couldn't farm any more, we needed to be as a 4 or just lose to them 5v4'ing us. Lesh micro'd Bristle but in honesty I felt that most of that ended up with him not contributing in team fights and just giving them 2 kills instead of 1.

    I was taking out 4 of them out solo but Medusa ulti was doing the same to the 3 on my team, once she had taken everyone else out she could kite me pretty effectively (especially once the linken's was up :S) so I was left to just escape or get whittled down, a couple of fights I just took the hits and raxed them mid but at this point it looked lost even with the rax and we were stuck in a game where we're 4v5, their Medusa stopping any real team fight coordination; what was probably even worse was that I could see her coming more and more online each fight very slowly but I couldn't do anything about it really, eventually she came online properly, I could 1v1 her with creative use of creeps to gap close / dodge the ulti and armlet toggling her shots but it was even (slightly in her favour) and the fight took ages (talking minutes we were both that fat) and if either of us had any help it was just instantly over.

    Felt really harsh having played what I considered very well and then losing that game, I don't think I missed more than 3 CS in the first 8 minutes and totally shut down the Timbersaw so much with lane control etc that I was about 3 lvls higher than him when I hit 11.

    Everyone was super friendly and it was a nice game though, the enemy all admitted they had lost for sure if Bristle was still around and apologised for that (which I found really nice and genuine but not at all their fault lol), that really hurt though... another loss on the solo MMR.

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