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  1. #21
    Lesser Hivemind Node Gorzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The amusing part being that a Valve OS with Steam as a built in store is basically what they're arguing against with Windows 8. Apparently it's only a problem if somebody other than Valve is doing it... more evidence of how Valve is the industry darling which would be handed a monopoly on a plate with adoration and everlasting love if people had their way.
    It's more that why should I care about it having a built-in store when its a store I'm using anyway? And even then, I doubt it'd be necessary, just more convenient.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorzan View Post
    It's more that why should I care about it having a built-in store when its a store I'm using anyway? And even then, I doubt it'd be necessary, just more convenient.
    By extension then if you're not using the built-in store with Windows 8 (and you probably won't on a desktop PC... or really most x86 devices) why is it such a big deal?

  3. #23
    Lesser Hivemind Node Gorzan's Avatar
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    Dunno, really, I don't really know about Win8, that's the reason I've yet to talk about it one way or the other. But I get the general sensation that A) they're trying to push the store too far B) There's more people angry about Win8 trying to turn PCs into smartphones, or something like that.

  4. #24
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    [edit] Fail, posted in the wrong page. Sorry.

    The correct post for this thread is:

    In the past, it was a more open market. Anyone could sell. Now it's "closed garden" for Apple and soon possibly MS. This could put the squeeze on other companies and individual devs. Valve included. So, why should Valve not also bring out their own OS with a store?

    If the store use to be separate from the OS, and now is not (most integrated stores now forbid "competing" stores through apps!), then really it looks like MS are trying to put Valve out of business. Valve have 2 options. Do nothing and die, or change their business to one that continues to provide a service and take in money.

    I've no problem with Valve changing their system and store, as long as they let customers know what they are doing and allow for existing customers to keep using existing services.
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 09-08-2012 at 10:49 AM.

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    If the store use to be separate from the OS, and now is not (most integrated stores now forbid "competing" stores through apps!), then really it looks like MS are trying to put Valve out of business. Valve have 2 options. Do nothing and die, or change their business to one that continues to provide a service and take in money.
    Except that's not actually what's happening - the "Metro" store (to use an old term that MS can't use any more) has nothing to do with Valve - Steam still works under Windows 8 and nothing will change that, because it's an x86 app. All Metro apps have to be sold through the Windows Store, much like the App Store on iOS. But since Valve can't really do anything with Metro, it doesn't really make that much of a difference for them.

    The fears of MS locking down x86 apps are unfounded. If Valve do nothing... nothing happens. You keep buying games on Steam. Half Life 3 still doesn't come out. Gabe puts on a few kilos and inches closer to that myocardial infarction we all know he'll have.

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Will it sell Matlab? Too damn difficult to locate stock here that it is not such a guilt here to DL one from web......

    No I mean "sell", not "lease".

  7. #27
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    Steam still works under Windows 8 soldant, but what about later on? As Valve already find developing for Xbox a pain (see other devs, the only one to get away with it was Mahjong, eveyone else pays around $30k PER PATCH).

    Valve (that is Gabe) are just worried MS get too greedy and as they already brought an Xbox and IOS style App store to the desktop, they might do the same with their main OS in Windows. Hedging the bets to multiple software and multiple platforms (Linux) is a good move.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Steam still works under Windows 8 soldant, but what about later on? As Valve already find developing for Xbox a pain (see other devs, the only one to get away with it was Mahjong, eveyone else pays around $30k PER PATCH).

    Valve (that is Gabe) are just worried MS get too greedy and as they already brought an Xbox and IOS style App store to the desktop, they might do the same with their main OS in Windows. Hedging the bets to multiple software and multiple platforms (Linux) is a good move.
    I already addressed that - attempting to lock down the x86 app sector would be absolute suicide, and there's absolutely no reason to do so. Windows has superiority simply by the sheer number of programs that it supports. The x86 market is not changing. The new Windows store is only for WinRT apps... something Steam will never be (and probably can't be, given that it's an x86 app).

    Gabe's chief worry is that there's another store that threatens Valve's attempt to grip the digital distribution market and control it... one which happens to be part of the OS. But that ignores the fact that it's Metro only, and locking the system down to only allow signed x86 apps would be a pain in the arse for everyone and drastically reduce the software library size. Believe it or not, Microsoft are actually pretty good at legacy support, even if it's to their detriment. They're not going to wipe out the x86 software library. Anybody who suggests otherwise is flying in the face of reason.

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Will it sell Matlab? Too damn difficult to locate stock here that it is not such a guilt here to DL one from web......

    No I mean "sell", not "lease".
    I sincerely doubt it. More likely than not this is going to be smaller applications (think "notepad++" not "MS Word"), at least for now.

    Most of the bigger software is primarily sold via bulk licenses to companies, groups, and universities. So I don't know if they would benefit to any large degree from a Steam app store.

    My personal gut feeling: The most "big boy" software we might find would be 3ds max and photoshop, and even those I am skeptical of (at least in the first year or two): Stuff people use for "making games" as it were, since the userbase will overlap and provide good marketing.
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  10. #30
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    Soldant, I find the argument that "Valve is worried about competition" redundant. :P

    Why? Well, they are not worried about Origin, GOG, Onlive, Play, Amazon, Ebay, Direct2Drive etc, etc, etc. Why be worried about a store from MS? Oh, unless it's intergrated with the OS. So, to even the playing field I can understand Valve/Steam wanting an even field too. Step 1) is to have their own OS. Step 2) is to offer other software (to have features comparable to other OS's.

    A Linux Distro using WINE style APIs (thus not emulation ;) ) would be the first and easiest step. Or just offering a Ubuntu version (as most installs are automatic).

  11. #31
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    There'd be something to be said for Steam offering free commonly used apps too. One of the nicest things about Steam is the ease of re-installing when moving machines, if I could click one button and have all my regular tools setup for me too, that'd be lovely.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    There'd be something to be said for Steam offering free commonly used apps too. One of the nicest things about Steam is the ease of re-installing when moving machines, if I could click one button and have all my regular tools setup for me too, that'd be lovely.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The amusing part being that a Valve OS with Steam as a built in store is basically what they're arguing against with Windows 8. Apparently it's only a problem if somebody other than Valve is doing it... more evidence of how Valve is the industry darling which would be handed a monopoly on a plate with adoration and everlasting love if people had their way.

    That said, apart from the fact that Steam would need an interface overhaul and I don't particularly want it as a launcher for all my apps, I don't really care either way. I don't care because I'll still get shafted with regional pricing, except now I'll have an additional DRM element to all my apps. If Valve want to go off and try to corner the market on digital distribution I can't blame them for wanting to do so. Still if Valve can do it, others should be able to do it too. Steam is still a walled garden at the end of the day - it's just the walls are a tad lower.

    This^ in its entirety is how I feel

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    My personal gut feeling: The most "big boy" software we might find would be 3ds max and photoshop, and even those I am skeptical of (at least in the first year or two): Stuff people use for "making games" as it were, since the userbase will overlap and provide good marketing.
    Even then I don't think Photoshop would turn up... except maybe PSe, but even then I don't know if Adobe would play nice with Valve. I guess some of the more mod-oriented tools might show up and some of the cheaper modelling packages, but somehow I even doubt that 3ds Max would turn up. Unless they start putting out "personal" editions at cheaper price points.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Soldant, I find the argument that "Valve is worried about competition" redundant. :P
    I know, and I actually agree that it seems stupid that Valve needed to go on a crusade against the Windows Store like they have. Even if it is included with the OS, it'll only sell WinRT apps. Steam will still be the standard for games, if only because for the US it's cheaper. YMMV elsewhere (especially here, thanks publishers).

    But they clearly aren't pleased with competition as posed by the store, even though it basically means bugger all for them. What I am pointing out though is that people effectively sided with Valve and agreed that bundling a store with an OS is such a horrible, unspeakable move, yet turned around and said "Take all my money!" (because that meme still isn't overused yet...) when it's suggested that Valve will do effectively the same thing. Even worse is that they advocate for a console which will probably raise the walls of the proverbial garden a bit higher. So long as a company appears benevolent (even if they want to prevent you from launching a class action lawsuit) apparently it's okay to do stuff like that. But as soon as anyone else considers it, they flip out.

    Hell, they'd better worry more about Apple than Microsoft, because Apple have taken greater steps to lock down OS X from apps outside the App Store (though even they still permit you to install other apps). But is Valve going on a crusade against them to protect the Mac gamers? Oh right, nobody plays games on a Mac. My mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    A Linux Distro using WINE style APIs (thus not emulation ;) ) would be the first and easiest step. Or just offering a Ubuntu version (as most installs are automatic).
    WINE is terrible though for the most part, I can't imagine people swapping over when each game has a bug list like "minimap doesn't display, artefacts on some textures, crashes after 15 minutes" attached to it and might just break with an update. Which is probably why Valve are investigating moving into OpenGl again, like they offered with HL1.

  15. #35
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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  16. #36
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    No Soldant, what I'm trying to say is Valve do not care about Windows 8 store as competition. They care about it being "the integrated walled garden". It makes putting up games on windows 8 start to get as difficult as putting games up on Xbox (see the catastrophe some Devs have with that).

    So, Valve see Windows 8 going in a poor direction. They need to act now, else Windows 9 could only have a closed garden approach, and ban ALL competing stores (AKA IOS, Android, Xbox360, PS3, Wii, etc). Although these stores do not always ban competition, it makes it much harder if your competitors can take 30% of your takings (not even profits here!).

    Valve are looking to sort Wine out. Basically setup a profile for every game on their catalog (AFAIK). This would make them try to make it work as smoothly as their current store and Windows system.

    PS, I've kinda got overlaping comments on this thread and the Windows 8 one. :P
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 10-08-2012 at 09:09 AM.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    No Soldant, what I'm trying to say is Valve do not care about Windows 8 store as competition. They care about it being "the integrated walled garden". It makes putting up games on windows 8 start to get as difficult as putting games up on Xbox (see the catastrophe some Devs have with that).
    Except it doesn't, because it has nothing to do with x86 apps. Valve are pissed that there's another store opening up by one of the companies that has a large stake in gaming. Valve's concerns about a walled garden (which Steam effectively is as well) are more about Valve's share of the digital distribution market than any widespread concern for you and me. They do care despite what they say. They're going to care a lot more if they start selling other software (i.e. not games). But it still won't make any difference for them, nor does it suddenly excuse people from supporting a hypothetically identical approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    They need to act now, else Windows 9 could only have a closed garden approach, and ban ALL competing stores (AKA IOS, Android, Xbox360, PS3, Wii, etc).

    Let's draw a distinction here - the 360, PS3, Wii, and iOS are inherently closed platforms anyway and the device manufacturers (Apple, Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo respectively) have a much greater support requirement for their devices, hence a walled garden isn't necessarily a bad thing nor has it been terribly detrimental. Android is still 'open' in that there are other ways to install apps. The consoles still have the brick-and-mortar stores so even though they are closed, walled gardens there's still plenty of store competition, so the comparison isn't quite as easy to make.

    They're all very different from Windows, with a huge library of x86 software which isn't going to be affected by WinRT at all. There's no indication that Microsoft intend to close down the OS to all other stores or apps - just the WinRT aspect because it also operates on ARM tablets, and no doubt Microsoft want to enforce device compatibility for software. A walled garden isn't always a bad thing - it does help to enforce standards that would otherwise effectively be voluntary, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Valve are looking to sort Wine out. Basically setup a profile for every game on their catalog (AFAIK). This would make them try to make it work as smoothly as their current store and Windows system.
    Heh, good luck with that. No, seriously, good luck, because they'll need it.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Valve Time strikes again?
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