Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 35
  1. #1
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    39

    Phil Fish Stole, IGF Corrupt, Indie Scene Living - Allistair Pinsof & Georgina Young

    http://techraptor.net/content/relati...-pinsof-part-2

    "McGrath created the central mechanic, design, and code which was lifted from an earlier project he made with Fish that was a music game. Fish admitted to this as far back as 2007, but he’d say “the whole game is made around the 3D pixel aesthetic” or “it’s all designed around my Miyazaki influence”. "


    "I asked what she thought would win the Best Game Award, she flippantly bragged that her boyfriend is friends with Brandon so he’ll win."

    "This is what occurs when there is no true watch dog in the games press and they have judges and PR in their insane email list that shouldn’t even exist in the first place."

    * Edit: Living In Fear, dumbass
    Last edited by WrenBoy; 04-02-2015 at 08:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Network Hub Hanban's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    294
    "I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids!"
    BobHound - EVE Online

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NEuro Troika Franchulate #3
    Posts
    5,158
    WrenBoy must be new here, we don't talk about ethics in game journalism.
    It's totally offlimits.
    Steam(shots), Imgur, Flickr, Bak'laag, why do you forsake me?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wenz View Post
    Bin the .exes to get it high.

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    6,903
    There's no true watchdog in the movies or music press and they seem to be doing just fine...

    The watchdog for the 'real world news' press is - at least in the UK - run by the press themselves and thus always find them completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

    Sometimes you have to make-up your own mind about things instead of assuming someone else is filtering and checking everything for you.

    In fact make that 'all the fucking time'

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,742
    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    There's no true watchdog in the movies or music press and they seem to be doing just fine...
    Pretty sure most movie awards are highly political back-slapping events.

    I'm also amused that RPS has got so "we don't talk about this" and defensive about conflicts of interest and so on in gaming journalism latley (this was even before the err, "unpleasantness" having in the past put out articles criticsing the game PR/journo overlap. The weird thing is in gaming journalism that it's almost required. When reporting job losses, gaming journos have to express empathy. They have to apologise and give the benefit of the doubt in previews and the like. And this isn't because of pressure from game devs and publishing goons - it's pressure from their peers and even from their audience. Being "too close" to the industry is built in to gaming journalism. I guess you have to jjust know and consider that all the while.

  6. #6
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    There's no true watchdog in the movies or music press and they seem to be doing just fine...

    The watchdog for the 'real world news' press is - at least in the UK - run by the press themselves and thus always find them completely innocent of any wrongdoing.
    I dont think Pinsof meant official watchdog. I assume he meant someone reporting on wrongdoing in the gaming press or in the Indie scene in general, ie an unofficial watchdog resulting from a gaming press which is capable of reporting on its own misdeeds.

    As I understood him, that was his point about the damage the Game Journo Pros List was doing.

  7. #7
    I don't know how much he can be trusted, but taken at face value, I can say his intention is good at least.
    The problem with agreeing or disagreeing with him on certain matters is that what he thinks is 'fact' is different from what I think is 'fact', and there's hardly any authority that will settle the matter for us. But what I will say is that, from the point of view of his reality, I think his views are quite sensible.

    People rather debate how this started and conduct a slap-fight rather than seek to make peace and progress. I got thrown into the mosh pit after expressing my disgust in extremists of both groups.
    Most of us just want to give each other a hug and make some fun games to play with people we appreciate and trust. I don’t want anyone’s career to burn away like mine did. I hope people who made mistakes come forth, admit, apologize, and ask community how they think they could improve or repair their business. Instead of trying to make peace with all, it seems certain devs and media are putting their eggs in one basket and hoping it’s the right one. I want hope and forgiveness, not punishment and chaos.
    (The best parts of the interview remind me of Strange Headache. )

    He does hold some sad views about what good journalism should be like, and such other matters. In particular, he seems to be holding the myth of objectivity, and that politics should be left out of games; he even calls articles about ethics and discrimination "inflammatory", so really on that kind of things I couldn't disagree with him more.

    Not even going to bother with the comments.

  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    12,662
    Any reason to hate on Phil Fish is a fun time.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,742
    One example of when RPS did Gaming Journalism-Journalism (kinda): http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/dave-tosser/

    {Note - not saying its an unacceptable thing to choose to stop covering this sort of thing. Or to change the editorial opinion. Just an interesting observation}

    I also read the article now. Honestly, sounds kinda like "I don't want to shit stir, but here I am about to stir as hard as possible". I'm sure there's some "truth" to it, but it reads a bit like a bitter lashing out against all the people they blame for where they are today.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    2,670
    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    When reporting job losses, gaming journos have to express empathy. They have to apologise and give the benefit of the doubt in previews and the like. And this isn't because of pressure from game devs and publishing goons - it's pressure from their peers and even from their audience. Being "too close" to the industry is built in to gaming journalism. I guess you have to jjust know and consider that all the while.
    Funny, and here I was thinking that being empathetic to other people's misfortune just means being a nice person. I had no idea that kind of thing is the mark of indoctrination by the games industry cabal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Any reason to hate on Phil Fish is a fun time.
    I had a good laugh when the article described Phil Fish as a 'social butterfly', given his reputation.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    6,798
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Any reason to hate on Phil Fish is a fun time.
    I've read wherever he's been, there's a reek of sulphur that can't be removed in any way.

    Unfortunately there is no indie developer watchdog that can keep him from leaving home.
    The Onward March of Bundles - filling your backlog since 1911
    Stalk my Steam profile, or follow my fight against the backlog on HowLongToBeat.

    "You take the Klingon's detached hand"

  12. #12
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by MelodyMeows View Post
    The problem with agreeing or disagreeing with him on certain matters is that what he thinks is 'fact' is different from what I think is 'fact', and there's hardly any authority that will settle the matter for us.
    As long as you feel that Phil Fish is an authority on Phil Fish, then at least one of his claims should be considered settled.

    http://www.northcountrynotes.org/jas...=1&show_date=1

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Fish
    His idea was the basic "rotation" idea used in Fez. I came up with a few ideas for the game's look.
    ...
    I had a very specific vision of how things should be, and he had a diametrically opposed vision of how things should be. But Shawn being the coder (I can't code shit), he had the bigger end of the stick. So we had a bit of a fight, and we kinda "broke up".

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,742
    Quote Originally Posted by LTK View Post
    Funny, and here I was thinking that being empathetic to other people's misfortune just means being a nice person. I had no idea that kind of thing is the mark of indoctrination by the games industry cabal!
    You don't see it in other media. At least, not with the frequency and universality as seen in the games press. They'll report on the fate of the project/company; on the number of job losses; they might quote someone who works/worked there if anyone will speak publically (which is a good way of getting across the human impact); it's pretty rare to see a line like this at the end of an article "and here's hoping that all the workers at Food Corp X get a new job, even though they went out of business for selling mouldy food". Yet it's expected/required when writing about games companies. It's also not a cabal, it's not like there is some mastermind orchestrating this. It's just the culture that has developed. (And is now being competed with by "YouTubers", many of whom think it's fine to be paid by developers and not tell any of their viewers this, as long as they don't explicitly brand it a 'review'...)
    Last edited by CMaster; 04-02-2015 at 10:16 PM.

  14. #14
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by MelodyMeows View Post
    He does hold some sad views about what good journalism should be like, and such other matters. In particular, he seems to be holding the myth of objectivity, and that politics should be left out of games; he even calls articles about ethics and discrimination "inflammatory", so really on that kind of things I couldn't disagree with him more.
    Gamer fantasy journalism purity. I don't really understand where it comes from. It has no relation to the real thing. It's weird that some are so obsessed with it (quite a lot in fact). They don't seem to realise that this stuff doesn't get covered with astounding depth because no one really gives a crap. The incestuousness of some awards show is only marginally amusing for the amount of work needed to cover it to their exacting standards. Maybe that's what they can't abide (that most people just don't care about the things that obsess them) and so concoct some ideal to demand for.

    Actually worse is that they imply all the necessaries are actually there to do this fantasy journalism, but are not so clearly vast corruption and collusion must be in place (more so than anything else in the world)

    I think there's need for a new taxonomic group. There's gamers, which are people who like games, like reading and talking about games etc. They like to play, to evolve strategies and stories about what happens in them. That is their behavioural production. Then there's meta-gamers; a sub phylum for whom the talk about games in the media is as much the game as the games themselves. They want to know who is saying what, are they saying it right, is it really an 8 etc etc. Optimising that is the focus of their energy as much as games themselves.


    Anyway, probably should talk about the article. It's interesting so far, but not much we haven't heard said before. I guess here's someone going on record for a change. This is clearly monumentally important for some people and it isn't great if it's all true. But as I said before in some deleted thread or other, if you come from film none of this stuff is the least bit exciting. If the IGF is a bit of a mess (and it might be) probably the thing to do is make another festival rather than flipping out over it.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,742
    Quote Originally Posted by MelodyMeows View Post
    I don't know how much he can be trusted, but taken at face value, I can say his intention is good at least.

    ...

    Most of us just want to give each other a hug and make some fun games to play with people we appreciate and trust.
    The problem with that sort of philosophy is that it sounds great and reasonable. Yet suprisingly often it is used as an excuse to freeze out members of "outgroups" because they're you know, different and they aren't sure if they can hug and be comfortable with them.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by WrenBoy View Post
    As long as you feel that Phil Fish is an authority on Phil Fish, then at least one of his claims should be considered settled.

    http://www.northcountrynotes.org/jas...=1&show_date=1
    To be honest, that was the part that interested me the least. But let's roll with it.
    What is your point? That Fish stole the core mechanics of his game?

    Maybe. At the same link you provided there is a comment by Shawn McGrath. Assuming he's the real one, I'd hardly call the rotation mechanic stolen, considering he doesn't seem to want it because he thinks it's a wreck and impossible to use. I'd hardly call that stolen, if they worked on it together and then McGrath himself didn't want it.

    Now, I'm not defending Phil Fish. But again, I don't think I have enough info from trusted sources to be able tell either way. I simply feel unable to pass any kind of judgement because of insufficient information.

    And then, what is the point of all this? Everybody who wanted to buy Fez already bought it played it. Fish said he's not going to make any other games because of the toxicity he found himself on the receiving end of (something I can hardly disagree with, no matter what I think about him or his attitude). And that's why I find that the least interesting part of the interview. There's not even a point in calling for a boycott of his game at this point in time, so, really, what's the point of talking about him and 'hating' him in 2015?

    The part about Brandon Boyer, if true, would be much more relevant, considering he's still around. But I don't trust Pinsof alone as a source, and I don't trust the 'others' who oppose him either, so, I don't know.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,927
    That's general press though. Press with political/economical backing is different. Even in the movie reviews, if it's a Director they like, even if unanimously hated else where, they lament and hope the Director "gets a new gig" etc.

    Even the "Food Corp X" example soon changes from "fraudulently selling mouldy food" to "bullied by the regulators" if someone else is pulling strings (financially or emotionally) in the editors office.
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    6,903
    Quote Originally Posted by WrenBoy View Post
    I dont think Pinsof meant official watchdog. I assume he meant someone reporting on wrongdoing in the gaming press or in the Indie scene in general, ie an unofficial watchdog resulting from a gaming press which is capable of reporting on its own misdeeds.
    Again that's something which doesn't - to any great degree that I've noticed, at least - happen with music or movies.

    In fact with music, most places that write about it are well known for having preferences for certain types of music and certain types of artist. e.g. in the UK, the NME has always focussed on hipster shit, then ignored it when it became popular whilst constantly hating anything remotely like rock music.

    Look at any block of movies reviews and you'll see WILDLY differing opinions - for every utter turd there's one guy who's saying "hey, I kinda liked it" - and for every blazing blockbuster there are people shaking their heads (someone other than me thought Inception was utter shite I'm sure)

    Awards ceremonies are particular corrupt and self-serving - they award things "because they feel like it" to promote whatever agenda they like. I remember, years ago, Chris Evans taking the piss when Sony awarded him "Best Radio Show" but NOT "Best Breakfast Radio Show" (how the fuck can a breakfast show win the former and not the latter??)

    I really have no idea what people are so het-up about - the sort of journalism with exists around commercial products is ALWAYS going to be murky - anyone offering an opinion on any commercial product takes that risk - but music/movies and other fields don't seem to grab pitchforks over it.

    Form your own opinions - and note that means FORM them, not write them on a placard and hit people over the head with it.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    6,798
    Quote Originally Posted by MelodyMeows View Post
    And then, what is the point of all this? Everybody who wanted to buy Fez already bought it played it. Fish said he's not going to make any other games because of the toxicity he found himself on the receiving end of (something I can hardly disagree with, no matter what I think about him or his attitude). And that's why I find that the least interesting part of the interview. There's not even a point in calling for a boycott of his game at this point in time, so, really, what's the point of talking about him and 'hating' him in 2015?
    Beating the dead and buried horse that everybody despises* earns you hate points (HtP) that you can then spend on other targets?

    (edit: wait I forgot about the smug feeling of having been right all along!)

    *because you hate him right? think about it, the guy literally pooped on boxes of japanese games in front of a crowd. Then set the whole thing on fire. That's it, I'm having an aneurysm just thinking of it - I'm calling fatwah. I'm going to draw furry pictures of Phil Fish and then do that thing that does your palms all hairy all above them and that while I'm broadcasting myself on Twitch. But not on purpose, of course.
    Last edited by alms; 04-02-2015 at 10:52 PM.
    The Onward March of Bundles - filling your backlog since 1911
    Stalk my Steam profile, or follow my fight against the backlog on HowLongToBeat.

    "You take the Klingon's detached hand"

  20. #20
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by MelodyMeows View Post
    What is your point? That Fish stole the core mechanics of his game?
    Yes, that is my point.

    Regarding Pinsofs other points, I agree that they do not yet have published confirmation.* Personally I believe Pinsofs claims. I believe he has more to lose than to gain from making them and his statements in this interview shows he realizes this. Obviously its a judgement call until we get more information.

    Edit: Of course the GameJournoPros list is a real confirmed thing but I assume that this is not in dispute.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •