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  1. #121
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    You can't. This is what US wants to it can exert further control. Military intervention is simply the next step!
    Hey, I don't know if you've noticed, but neither the US nor Russia want the whole country to fall apart, and if this keeps going, that's exactly what's going to happen. It will cease to function as a country. Without a central infrastructure, it'll just be a free-for-all with these Salafi Mujahideen.

    What have we achieved in Iraq? When we destroyed the Sunni power structure, we got Baathists roaming around and killing Shiites, so we filled up a police force with Sadr rebels. Then we got the Shia Mahdi Army killing Sunnis left and right, so we propped up Sunnis in the police forces that were allegedly unaffiliated with the Baathists and Al-Qaeda and ended up being generally ineffective while the entire country basically ethnically cleansed itself. What we got was 3 million refugees, a 2 trillion dollar clean-up bill, a UN and EU that distrusts us, and a regime that can't even keep the power on.

    What, pray tell, control do you speak of, in this grand American conspiracy of yours? Ultimately speaking, when the resident right-wing fascist can point out holes in your theory, you're doing Liberalism no favors, so quit while you're behind.
    Last edited by Nalano; 08-09-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post

    What, pray tell, control do you speak of, in this grand American conspiracy of yours? Ultimately speaking, when the resident right-wing fascist can point out holes in your theory, you're doing Liberalism no favors, so quit while you're behind.
    I only hope that if Congress prevents U.S. action (which it looks like they will) the world won't blame the U.S for whatever else happens. The "give peace a chance" crowd tends to be the same crowd that blames the U.S for Rwanda and Sudan getting as bad as they did though. I expect it will be yet another cake and eat it too situation.

  3. #123
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misnomer View Post
    I only hope that if Congress prevents U.S. action (which it looks like they will) the world won't blame the U.S for whatever else happens. The "give peace a chance" crowd tends to be the same crowd that blames the U.S for Rwanda and Sudan getting as bad as they did though. I expect it will be yet another cake and eat it too situation.
    World Policeman and Pacifist Nation are, indeed, diametrically opposed. If you're the former, people complain that you kill civilians, and if you're the latter, people complain that you're insensate to humanitarian needs. The reason why we need strong leaders in the first place is because they have to walk that tightrope. Would that folks would realize that even being offered such a decision is the result of many decades of power-brokering.
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  4. #124
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    Yes? It destabilizes the regime in place, the Assad regime. It wins worldwide support for military intervention.
    They're already destabilised! They're already hated for alleged human rights abuses! Gassing the rebels accomplishes nothing for the US except the risk that they'll be discovered and outed as using chemical weapons. This conspiracy theory is ridiculous, as ridiculous as the 9/11 conspiracies.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    How do you know the rebels even gasses themselves? Rant rant rant!
    Yeah I'm sure the rebels would gas themselves to entice a bunch of countries who have no interest in military intervention. I mean it's worked real well so far, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    You can't. This is what US wants to it can exert further control. Military intervention is simply the next step!
    As Nalano has pointed out, the 'control' the US has on Afghanistan and Iraq is tenuous at best, and requires constant maintenance. Syria isn't Iraq, and the US aren't going to play nice with fundamentalist rebel groups. You're yet to demonstrate a compelling case for what the US gains by screwing around in Syria, except another expensive conflict which will drag on, cost more lives, and be just as unpopular as the Iraq war. The bleeding hearts aren't going to support military intervention, and if you can't convince them that bombing the place is necessary to stop chemical strikes on civilian targets, you're not going to get your war.
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  5. #125
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    You guys are confusing military control with political and economic control. That is the goal. USA couldn't give one shit about whether or not there is stability in the region.

    And as far as war mongering US goes... Putin just suggesting that Syria hand over it's chemical weapons stockpiles for destruction.

    Maybe Obama should hand his Nobel peace prize to Putin!

    They're already destabilised! They're already hated for alleged human rights abuses! Gassing the rebels accomplishes nothing for the US except the risk that they'll be discovered and outed as using chemical weapons. This conspiracy theory is ridiculous, as ridiculous as the 9/11 conspiracies.


    They were ousted as the ones responsible for giving Saddam chemical weapons he used against Kurdish populations and no one gave one shit.
    Last edited by rockman29; 10-09-2013 at 02:20 AM.

  6. #126

  7. #127
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    You guys are confusing military control with political and economic control. That is the goal. USA couldn't give one shit about whether or not there is stability in the region.
    Political control?

    Jesus, you don't get how this works, do you?
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  8. #128
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    You guys are confusing military control with political and economic control. That is the goal. USA couldn't give one shit about whether or not there is stability in the region.
    Then what the hell are you on about?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    Maybe Obama should hand his Nobel peace prize to Putin!
    What?!

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    They were ousted as the ones responsible for giving Saddam chemical weapons he used against Kurdish populations and no one gave one shit.
    What does this have to do with anything?!


    TL;DR: What?!
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  9. #129
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Swear to god, political and economic control!

    Holy shit, even Sun Tzu knew that there's no such thing as a profitable military campaign: Doesn't matter how much oil was under Iraq, it wasn't worth $2 trillion and the elimination of our credit rating. Doesn't matter if Iraq turned into a shining beacon of democracy, any political goodwill was withered away by our unilateral venture such that none of our historic allies want to join us for anything now.

    Bush-era idiocy was just that, and you should never assume conspiracy when idiocy is a much more plausible explanation.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  10. #130

  11. #131
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    @Nalano

    @Soldant

    Clearly you are too tired to spare effort to read any other responders posts, because you just want to win the e-peen war, by suggesting "what is reasonable" because everything that the Western world does is reasonable.

    Read the last two posts by Mikhei: they are much more in line with what I'm posting, and contrary to what you guys want to believe, the world is not so just and simple.

    You really honestly believe USA has nothing to gain by destroying it's only two enemies in the Middle East left? Syria and Iran? Military action would be the coup de grace for USA against the Syria regime.

    You guys want to talk about US economic collapse? Not going to happen. US dollars are so pervasively held in so many countries this is unlikely to happen in the next 25 years without including a catastrophic event.
    Jesus, you don't get how this works, do you?
    I suppose you, the American, have all the answers to this conflict? You yourselves cannot even define what is USA's interest in bombing this nation, aside from "humanitarian effort" despite the fact that Obama now says they may be able to avoid intervention if Syria turns over it's chemical weapons and continues/returns to killing people with conventional weaponry! How is that for humanitarian. Just don't kill people with chemical weapons, but it's perfectly OK to kill people with conventional weapons!

    What utter disgusting logic! No wonder USA helps the terrorists, what backwards logic! 100,000 people killed is no reason to think of striking. 100,000 killed is no reason to not continue funding terrorists groups and supplying them with weapons! Hell no.
    Swear to god, political and economic control!

    Holy shit, even Sun Tzu knew that there's no such thing as a profitable military campaign: Doesn't matter how much oil was under Iraq, it wasn't worth $2 trillion and the elimination of our credit rating. Doesn't matter if Iraq turned into a shining beacon of democracy, any political goodwill was withered away by our unilateral venture such that none of our historic allies want to join us for anything now.

    Bush-era idiocy was just that, and you should never assume conspiracy when idiocy is a much more plausible explanation.
    You do not want to believe there is something worse that could be going on, therefore there is none to you.

    The new argument against USA imperialism and control is now "it's not Bush anymore you idiots."

    Despite the fact that "bush era idiots" which were supposed to be a very small group subverted the whole concept of democracy in USA to fight the Iraq war, and the political powers of this group are still present in the US political system.

    Classic stuff guys, classic stuff. Iraq is over therefore US is obviously doing no wrong. Great logic.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24039309
    Mr Quirico said that paradoxically he was treated with most humanity when held by al-Qaeda

    An Italian war correspondent held captive by multiple armed groups in Syria has spoken of how he was treated "like an animal".

    Domenico Quirico was freed on Sunday, after being held hostage for five months along with Belgian teacher Pierre Piccinin da Prata.

    In the pages of his newspaper, La Stampa, the 62-year-old described being subjected to two mock executions.

    He said his captors were "mixed-up" men consumed by the pursuit of money.

    Mr Quirico entered Syria from Lebanon on 6 April. He disappeared four days later near the city of Qusair - probably betrayed, Mr Quirico said, by members of the Free Syrian Army (FSA).
    Over following months he and Mr da Prata were passed from one armed group to another.

    I could hear him [my captor] breathing. I knew that he liked to have a man's life in his hands”

    Domenico Quirico

    The captives endured long, dangerous journeys that took them halfway across Syria as the battle frontlines shifted and they were forced to decamp.


    He finally arrived home in early on Monday morning, after what Italian authorities said were extensive efforts by the Italian foreign ministry and other state agencies.


    Money
    "Our captors were from a group that professed itself to be Islamist but that in reality is made up of mixed-up young men who have joined the revolution because the revolution now belongs to these groups that are midway between banditry and fanaticism," he said.
    USA support the FSA for 2 years in a civil war conflict against a sovereign government, which is nothing more than bandits and thieves and fanatics. And people really believe the Arab Spring is universal in ME?

    As if the protests in Egypt were the same as the ones in Syria, which were mostly perpertrated by mercenaries and terrorists interested in solely money and destruction of the country???

    These are the groups USA has been helping for 2 years. John McCain admits it, Obama admits it, Boehner admits it, Biden admits it...

    And the people of USA know nothing or hear nothing of this issue on TV, that USA openly supports funding of terrorists and mercenaries.

    USA is complicit in the deaths of 100,000 people in Syria, whether they are Syrian army, terrorists, or Syrian civilians.

    And you guys have the audacity to talk of chemical weapons as if they are the real culprit in this war causing the most devastation?

    And you guys actually claim that USA has the only power to intervene? US major intervention in Syria has been to PROLONG the war for 2 years, not to prevent it!!!!

    That is the pride of USA, funding terrorist organizations, and military intervention. Be proud of your great militaristic and fascist and imperialistic nation.

    Russia's fascist Putin is just as deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize as all the fascists in the US government, only they brand it "capitalism" except it's more like "capitalism running government through lobbyists and bankers."

    Obama and the US goverment fund terrorist wars, and US feels the moral authority to tell other nations how to act "humanely"????????????

    Doesn't matter if Iraq turned into a shining beacon of democracy, any political goodwill was withered away by our unilateral venture such that none of our historic allies want to join us for anything now.
    Except that intervening wins the support of allies in the Middle East.

    Namely Israel and Saudi Arabia.

    What a surprise, US has lobbyist interests in destroying the middle east? NO WAY!

    What is your response Nalano?

    What is your response Soldant?

    That was the fate of countries in the WTO, but Palast did not discuss those that were not in that organization at all, including Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Iran. These seven countries were named by U.S. General Wesley Clark (Ret.) in a 2007 “Democracy Now” interview as the new “rogue states” being targeted for take down after September 11, 2001.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eSb-EpL4fY

    No reason to intervene in Syria? I'm sorry, but even despite your American trademarked apathy, even you both are being clearly blissfully ignorant of the ideological and cultural and imperial war that USA is waging on the ME. It is the neverending US cultural belief that US knows best, despite the complete subversion of democracy that happens in USA everyday by lobbyists and despite the fact that US can't even decide how to handle it's own domestic issues of economic gaps, healthcare, and so many other issues..... they think they have the moral authority to tell other countries how to be humane and how to be democratic? Lol, get real.
    Last edited by rockman29; 11-09-2013 at 12:17 AM.

  12. #132
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    What is your response Soldant?
    Same as last time: what the hell are you on about?

    You're just out to hate the US and blame them for... well, everything. Fair enough, the US does some dodgy shit, but your conspiracy theory and whatever point you're trying to prove just keeps getting wilder. You completely ignore the fact that the US "destroying" Syria would result in another Iraq where they sit there trying to improve stability while troops get killed by IEDs and insurgents for sport. It becomes a massive drain to prop up a state that, quite frankly, isn't worth the effort.

    If the US wants to destroy Iran they can go attack Iran. Syria's screwed as it is, it doesn't need US help. While they're killing each other, who cares?
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  13. #133
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    What a surprise, US has lobbyist interests in destroying the middle east? NO WAY!

    What is your response Nalano?

    What is your response Soldant?
    My response is that you take any source that promotes your point of view no matter its veracity, case in point this glorified blog with no source material that you now wave at us.

    Word to the wise: Don't rely on Mikhel for links. Seriously. You are a shrill and undisciplined conspiracy theorist. Your ravings are an embarrassment to all who you associate with, and I beg of you for your own sake: Stop. Now. Whatever potentially persuasive argument you may have had has already been lost under the morass of platitudes before us. It's sad, really. Just sad.
    Last edited by Nalano; 11-09-2013 at 06:02 AM.
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  14. #134
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    My response is that you take any source that promotes your point of view no matter its veracity, case in point this glorified blog with no source material that you now wave at us.

    But it is sourced.

  15. #135
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    But it is sourced.
    No, Mikhel. The links on that article for the actual crux of its argument are to other blogs and activist sites. That's not a source. That's an echo chamber.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  16. #136
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    No, Mikhel. The links on that article for the actual crux of its argument are to other blogs and activist sites. That's not a source. That's an echo chamber.
    Validity is what you define it to be. [1]

    [1] Soldant (2013). Internet: Why Bullshit Matters. Journal of Applied Truth-Fabrication, 4(5), 194-205. DOI: 10.256.230/atf.30258938590.1091053.32
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  17. #137
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Or you know the US could just be like oh that seemed like a good cause to give weapons to they seem like they want to fight dictatorships and maybe if we helped them and the leaders of the new democracy might give us some oil no biggy for us...oh oh shit its actually more complicated then it seemed shit...what do we do now?

  18. #138
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    I'd recommend anyone interested in the current Syrian situation listen to Dan Carlin's latest Common Sense podcast. He talks a lot about presidential power and how Obama could have basically screwed himself with the red line comment.

    Episode 260 - An Army of One
    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
    For the Emperor!, a Total War: Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai AAR

  19. #139
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    He talks a lot about presidential power and how Obama could have basically screwed himself with the red line comment.
    Can't watch the podcast at work, but Jon Stewart excoriated the whole no backsies thing with, "what, are we in 7th grade?" but Obama got out of it largely by sending the decision to go to war to Congress, where it belonged in the first place.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Swear to god, political and economic control!

    Holy shit, even Sun Tzu knew that there's no such thing as a profitable military campaign: Doesn't matter how much oil was under Iraq, it wasn't worth $2 trillion and the elimination of our credit rating. Doesn't matter if Iraq turned into a shining beacon of democracy, any political goodwill was withered away by our unilateral venture such that none of our historic allies want to join us for anything now.

    Bush-era idiocy was just that, and you should never assume conspiracy when idiocy is a much more plausible explanation.
    The country as a whole may have lost money but that doesn't stop a few from getting immensely rich off of it.

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