Nationalism and You!

**Joseph-Sulphur** · 28-08-2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by soldant

The problem is the term "nationalism" has been hijacked in recent times to mean "anybody who doesn't go on a self-hatred trip about how Western civilisation is the downfall of man", much like "fascism" has changed from "a rather unappealing system of government" to "those damn police booked me for speeding in a school zone and enforced other laws and shit".

Fight the facists, smoke da bluntz errday!

**Nalano** · 28-08-2012, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by soldant

The problem is the term "nationalism" has been hijacked in recent times to mean "anybody who doesn't go on a self-hatred trip about how Western civilisation is the downfall of man", much like "fascism" has changed from "a rather unappealing system of government" to "those damn police booked me for speeding in a school zone and enforced other laws and shit".

Well, even "a rather unappealing system of government" is still a useless euphemism akin to "any form of politics I don't like," as compared to the actual definition of fascism.

Nationalism, however, does have a built-in overtone to worldview: "I am a citizen of X (and X is better than you)." As GBShaw put it, "patriotism is the conviction that your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."

Originally Posted by soldant

That too I guess, though we just label it 'intolerance'. Generally whenever someone calls someone a nationalist over here, it's because they go to an ANZAC Day parade or have a BBQ on Australia Day without apologising to the indigenous population over atrocities committed by colonists who they might not even have any relation to in the past, and lamenting that we're a Western nation sitting where we are. Never say anything good - not even about the extensive public healthcare system. If anybody asks, it's too shallow/doesn't go far enough/some people went in and died oh how horrible.

It's funny how ANZAC day in Australia gets more and more popular the further away you get from a war.

Consequently, I'd like to call bullshit in the "I didn't own any slaves, therefore I'm not responsible" defense. We don't live in a vacuum, and today is the result of yesterday.

**QuantaCat** · 28-08-2012, 02:19 PM

I am not proud of the past, but grateful for it, otherwise we wouldnt be where the hell we are right now.

That being said, Im from belgium, moved to austria. I cant stand belgium, but I love the fuck out of austria. (well, atleast out of Vienna).

Dont care much for its accomplishments though, but I could name some probably dubious facts:

- Lounge (genre) was invented in Vienna.
- Austria "started" the first world war.
- No colonies were owned by Austria (Belgium did though)
- an Austrian invented beaming.
- Its one of the (few) still stable Euro Zone countries.

**Velko** · 28-08-2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by soldant

That too I guess, though we just label it 'intolerance'. Generally whenever someone calls someone a nationalist over here, it's because they go to an ANZAC Day parade or have a BBQ on Australia Day without apologising to the indigenous population over atrocities committed by colonists who they might not even have any relation to in the past, and lamenting that we're a Western nation sitting where we are. Never say anything good - not even about the extensive public healthcare system. If anybody asks, it's too shallow/doesn't go far enough/some people went in and died oh how horrible.

Perhaps you didn't quite catch my drift, but I meant that people who proclaim themselves as "nationalists" tend to fret about darkies and muslims and gays and pinkohippiegreenwomen. Which has nothing to do with nationalism.

**soldant** · 29-08-2012, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Nalano

Well, even "a rather unappealing system of government" is still a useless euphemism akin to "any form of politics I don't like," as compared to the actual definition of fascism.

True but I couldn't be bothered getting into Fascism/fascism etc.

Originally Posted by Nalano

It's funny how ANZAC day in Australia gets more and more popular the further away you get from a war.

ANZAC Day is probably misunderstood by a lot of people, including the bogans who go "YEAH WAR IS AWESOME KILL THE SANDPEOPLE/JAWAS!" and the far-left who claim it's a glorification of war. It's neither. Although there's no shortage of patriotic chest-beating it's primarily about how horrible war is, and how many suffered in the trenches or on the trail etc. Its enduring 'popularity' probably stems in part from the fact that it was Australia's first major step on the world stage as an actual nation (not just a dinky British colony, though everyone still strongly identified with the British Empire regardless) along with the grim reminder that war is fucking horrible. Australia Day is an absolute joke compared to ANZAC Day.

Originally Posted by Nalano

Consequently, I'd like to call bullshit in the "I didn't own any slaves, therefore I'm not responsible" defense. We don't live in a vacuum, and today is the result of yesterday.

Slavery wasn't that big of an issue here, it was namely the concept of terra nullius and misguided attempts at 'integrated' (see the stolen generation). That said, while I wouldn't call it a defence (nor as a support for denying what happened or as an excuse not to improve things), it's a bit hard to demand an apology from people who live here but weren't descended from colonial times/have no connection to it to continually apologise for atrocities committed in the past. Remember we're a very diverse country, not everyone comes from colonists/convicts. Not to mention that the government did formally apologise back in 2007 and injects quite a bit into indigenous programs. They're misguided attempts that don't target the real problems, but it's not like they do nothing.

The apologist route is often taking the pointless moral high-ground and it's an easy target. But we'd best not get into indigenous issues, because it's too complicated/any discussion invariably devolves into someone taking that moral highground and ignoring every possible suggestion to improve things.

Originally Posted by Velko

Perhaps you didn't quite catch my drift, but I meant that people who proclaim themselves as "nationalists" tend to fret about darkies and muslims and gays and pinkohippiegreenwomen. Which has nothing to do with nationalism.

No, I did, but nobody identifies themselves as 'nationalist' here. The term is overwhelmingly used by others to describe somebody else (someone they don't agree with).