Query: Competitive Social Game

[Heliocentric]

Outside of the election based "political machine"-like games are there any multiplayer games where social graces/diplomatics etc are a factor?

I had some ideas for a turn based strategy game prototype and was wondering if anything similar exists? Just to be clear, I don't mean multiplayer diplomacy, I mean things like recruiting from your opponents people by better meeting their ideology in behaviour or troops refusing to commit atrocities or high risk actions just because you told them to.

[Sparkasaurusmex]

Just to be clear, you are refering to AI troops and not other players, correct?
Recruiting from opponents can be done in Total War: Shogun II (probably other Total Wars as well) but I don't think it's exactly how you mean.

[Dead Herald]

DotA2 and League of Legends, they certainly involve a considerable lack of social graces and an inherent disregard for any sort of decorum.

Best I can really think of is Nationstates which is more of a text based sim where you implement policy procedures and you compete with the rest of the "world" to see who can excel in a variety of categories such as Happiest Populace, Largest Standing Military and Shortest Lifespan amongst others. Most of the "political intrigue" happens on the forums and the World Council which players attempt to pass resolutions which forces other members to play by their rules, Also players run "continents" which are more or less WoW guilds trying to out-maneuver each other at World Council and encourage players to defect to their team. You can choose to ignore any or all of these facets of the game though.

I got bored of it after a while, but there it is.

[Nalano]

DotA2 and League of Legends, they certainly involve a considerable lack of social graces and an inherent disregard for any sort of decorum.

[ado]

Crusader Kings 2? That is pretty much a grand strategy game centered around diplomacy, and it's pretty darn awesome.

[pakoito]

That PA vignette completely missed the point and scope of MOBAs. He had a great time and stuff for a while, but he faced the choice of investing himself in the game and he chose to walk away. It's a competitive game catering the worst out there because it's oriented to people who get salty over games, unlike many other games. As you scale up the ladder the fun comes not from yellow explosions on the screen but defeating opponents, and you need a different mindset for it.

Badly drawn example: you can play basketball in your backyard, no rules, then you scale up to play with some friends for fun and inhouse rules. When you start going to tournaments or playing experienced players your backyard tricks doesn't work and make the game a bore for everyone. A good game is a balanced one where your team shines and you give your best and end up content with yourself.

[ado]

I don't see how. Even if he was making a small iOS game centered around diplomacy that is purely between players CK2 is a great source for inspiration.

[pakoito]

I don't see how. Even if he was making a small iOS game centered around diplomacy that is purely between players CK2 is a great source for inspiration.

I meant the PA strip, but the server errors made me send it too late.

[ado]

I meant the PA strip, but the server errors made me send it too late.

No offense given and none taken. The forums have been a bit screwy for the past few days...

[gundato]

Badly drawn example: you can play basketball in your backyard, no rules, then you scale up to play with some friends for fun and inhouse rules. When you start going to tournaments or playing experienced players your backyard tricks doesn't work and make the game a bore for everyone. A good game is a balanced one where your team shines and you give your best and end up content with yourself.

I think the bigger issue with MOBAs (and even more and more FPSes) is that, to expand your metaphor, the tourney players are taking over the courts at the local gym. So before, where you could go down to the gym (public server) and play some ball with your buddies (complete strangers :p) and have fun, now you get a very vocal group who scream "No, we need to play with these specific rules and a regulation ball with the appropriate pressure" (memorizing all the math of a MOBA, "hardcore" mode (instagib) for an FPS, etc). Obviously you could always just go set up a hoop in your backyard (assuming you have one), but you and your friends have been going to the gym for a weekly game for years and now these whippersnappers are ruining it.

In an FPS/"normal" game, the pro players would be griping about how it is all you and your friend's fault they lost.
In a MOBA, they would be throwing things at you and threatening to murder you/trying to make you cry and leave. :p

I don't often like PA's commentary, but I think that was the point. "Gabe" was just having fun, but apparently he wasn't supposed to be and was treated like trash for doing so (so a MOBA game :p), and that turned him off.

[Nalano]

Badly drawn example: you can play basketball in your backyard, no rules, then you scale up to play with some friends for fun and inhouse rules. When you start going to tournaments or playing experienced players your backyard tricks doesn't work and make the game a bore for everyone. A good game is a balanced one where your team shines and you give your best and end up content with yourself.

You play basketball with people you know.

You play MOBAs with assholes from the internet.

In this I'm channeling Vinraith.

[lasikbear]

I think the bigger issue with MOBAs (and even more and more FPSes) is that, to expand your metaphor, the tourney players are taking over the courts at the local gym. So before, where you could go down to the gym (public server) and play some ball with your buddies (complete strangers :p) and have fun, now you get a very vocal group who scream "No, we need to play with these specific rules and a regulation ball with the appropriate pressure" (memorizing all the math of a MOBA, "hardcore" mode (instagib) for an FPS, etc).

Its more like you go to play at the gym and the 5'2" kid who can barley make a layup screams at you and your friends for not playing the way he wants because he genuinely believes he is Paul Pierce and the only thing keeping him from playing in the NBA is always getting stuck on a team with 5'2" kids who can't make layups when he "deserves" to be playing with Rondo and Garnett. It's not top players coming in and ruining shit, its the people who think they are top players.

[gundato]

First, to actually help helio: Check out GalCiv2. The "culture" concept isn't quite that advanced, but the end result is kind of similar.

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Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to play a game "properly" because to do otherwise would ruin the fun for people. But I also have to say: The most fun I have ever had in (public) multiplayer involved people NOT knowing how to play.

It was Red Orchestra (the 2k4 mod). We were on a map that involved a river crossing. I was a commie. I had my trusty unscoped bolt-action rifle. I have no idea where most of my team was, but one user (who was named "JohnKerry" which made me laugh) kept coming to "help" me. His "help" largely consisted of running around, getting spotted, getting cut down in a hail of gunfire, and then getting me shot at because he was standing near me (I was prone, on the hill, taking out nazzies as they crossed the river).

But it was GREAT. Because I had to keep displacing every time he revealed my spot and I had to struggle to go to his corpse and steal ammo. Way more fun than working together with a proper team and dominating. Ended up getting 30 or 40 kills before they finally nailed me.

If I were "playing to win", I would have been annoyed. But it was just for fun, and that MADE it fun. Even the other team was joking around and saying things like "Gundato, maybe you should take a cue from Senator Kerry and get shot already". Because we were all just having fun and enjoying the game for what it was: a game.

[Splynter]

If I were "playing to win", I would have been annoyed. But it was just for fun, and that MADE it fun. Even the other team was joking around and saying things like "Gundato, maybe you should take a cue from Senator Kerry and get shot already". Because we were all just having fun and enjoying the game for what it was: a game.

Anybody else miss the days of connecting to your favourite server in an FPS and shooting the shit with the regulars and (mostly) friendly pubbers while shooting the shits on the other team?

[ado]

I feel that DOTA's and EVE Online's stories of how inaccessible the games are and how hostile the playerbase is are mostly propagated by the people who play them. I played both games, both are quite fun and the playerbase is your average online game playerbase. You have people who are good and who are assholes, just like when you're shooting hoops outside in the park.

Now the silly thing for me is that a lot of people buy in to these stories and believe them to the point where they shy away from even trying the game in question. Do you really believe that the machinations of EVE or DOTA are outside of your comprehension? And do you really believe that everyone who plays these games is the scum of the Earth?

They're just people, and people do what people do. They like their clubs, their exclusivity, and to think that they're special in some way that you're not.

[alms]

And do you really believe that everyone who plays these games is the scum of the Earth?

There's a difference between being the scum of the earth and behaving as if you were it.

Some places and situations turn mostly average people into unbearable assholes, it's a race to the bottom.

[gundato]

I feel that DOTA's and EVE Online's stories of how inaccessible the games are and how hostile the playerbase is are mostly propagated by the people who play them. I played both games, both are quite fun and the playerbase is your average online game playerbase. You have people who are good and who are assholes, just like when you're shooting hoops outside in the park.

Now the silly thing for me is that a lot of people buy in to these stories and believe them to the point where they shy away from even trying the game in question. Do you really believe that the machinations of EVE or DOTA are outside of your comprehension? And do you really believe that everyone who plays these games is the scum of the Earth?

They're just people, and people do what people do. They like their clubs, their exclusivity, and to think that they're special in some way that you're not.

EVE I can't speak for (I found the leveling system to be the worst money-sinking "scam" ever), but I have done a few MOBAs.

The "This game is really hard" isn't the problem. Hell, even the "Fuck you you god damned *****er **** slut, learn to play" isn't the problem. The problem is that the latter is actually viewed as acceptable and DEFENDED by the community.

Going back to the basketball metaphor: You are playing at the gym, someone starts screaming hatespeech and cursing you out for missing a shot. In a MOBA, odds are the rest of your team will either stay silent or even join in. Whereas a "good" community would say "Hey, stop being a prick" or "Get the hell out, there is no call for that language".

And the problem is: If you are a newb, you are going to probably experience the horrid folks. That is why I will probably never get into NS2 for example (I might try and latch on to one of the RPS sessions though). My first experience was non-stop hatespeech and assholish behavior, which is to be expected of any multiplayer game. But the problem is: Nobody cared. They essentially condoned that behavior. Maybe I just got unlucky on the two servers I tried, but that was enough to make me say "Yeah, I have better ways to spend my time".

And MOBAs tend to take it even farther and condone the hatespeech and bullying as appropriate behavior. Although, I think Valve have said they intend to penalize players for being dicks and some other MOBA added a system whereby you get points for being nice, which should help the genre a lot.

[Nalano]

Anybody else miss the days of connecting to your favourite server in an FPS and shooting the shit with the regulars and (mostly) friendly pubbers while shooting the shits on the other team?

The systematic elimination of private and clan servers has killed that camaraderie. Fuck random P2P hosting.

There's a difference between being the scum of the earth and behaving as if you were it.

Some places and situations turn mostly average people into unbearable assholes, it's a race to the bottom.

And that's kinda the point: Putting everybody on a global ladder turns these games into shitpiles.

[ado]

Yea but people playing basketball can be assholes in other ways. Like there was this lanky kid I used to play with from time to time, he was nice and all and a pretty solid player, but I always hated when he was covering me because he's a dirty player and likes to get his elbows in your way and in your ribs quite often. And he would do this on purpose just to get under my skin (like I said he was a good player). And you don't want to cry foul like a little bitch every two seconds so you endure, and by the end of the game all you feel is this rage and an unbearable desire to punch him right in his stupid face.

And this for me is way worse then being cussed at by a 15 year old online.

Anyway this has derailed the thread completely now. So sorry about that XD

[gundato]

The systematic elimination of private and clan servers has killed that camaraderie. Fuck random P2P hosting..

I wouldn't say "getting rid of" clan servers hurt it. If anything, I think it helped. Clans were always the worst of the worst in terms of "you are playing it wrong". So either they weren't there (normal pub), they were there and "having fun" (so getting yelled at for not playing correctly), or they were all teaming up and it was a Clan VS Five guy who don't even know each other.

Don't get me wrong, not all clan servers were bad, but I always found the worst (and best) communities on them.

And a private server, by definition, doesn't help the community. It splinters it.


Also: Neither of those are gone.