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  1. #1
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    How High Sec is Destroying EVE Online

    I tried to enjoy EVE Online. For the first month I did so. Thoroughly. I spent some time roaming around high sec, running missions to grind for standings. Along with my corp mates we managed to get jump clones going for our corp in this way. I trained into t2 frigs, and then into Cruisers, BC and am the verge now of flying my first Battleships.

    But it will never happen, because I am leaving EVE.

    When I first joined EVE I imagined a Galaxy at war. A place where resources were limited, where living space was scarce, where very day was a struggle for survival. I envisioned a universe where alliances waged war in order to get - and keep - the resources needed to keep their edge, their economic advantage. Where danger lurked round every corner, where trust was dangerous yet necessary. Where, in short, survival was difficult.

    I imagined, if you will, a sort of Day Z in space, where the 'zombies' were other players.

    Alas, perhaps EVE was once this game. But no longer. Recent changes to High Security space have ruined EVE. War decs are more expensive than ever. Mining barges have more Effective Hit Points (EHP) unfitted than Destroyers and Mining Exhumers have more EHP than Battlecruisers. Whether or not you insure a ship, if you gank someone in high sec you receive no insurance payout. Even in low sec, if you are the aggressor, you are flagged as criminal and lose standing despite the lack of CONCORD "Super Police" response.

    High sec has ruined EVE. The game is little more now than a standard theme park MMO. You mine, run missions and obtain loot. Rinse and repeat. Add to this that CCP has chosen to make exploring their universe as tedious as possible - try scanning down hidden locations sometime - and it all adds up to what I fear is the end of EVE online as current players know it.

    I would love to see things change for the better. Even had some suggestions that I think can save EVE as it was intended to be:

    -All mining belts are low sec space. No matter what system or region, the belts themselves are beyond CONCORD reach and are considered - and my be used as - low sec space. Anything that happens within 1AU of a mining belt is beyond the scope of CONCORD.

    -Aggressing is not a criminal act, except in high sec space, within visual range of a CONCORD ship. If CONCORD did not see it, then as far as CONCORD is concerned, it DID NOT happen. This means gates and stations in high sec remain safe and cannot be effectively camped except to gain intel on comings and goings, but allows sites and belts to remain dangerous.

    -Low sec is treated the same as Null for aggression. No criminal flags and no loss of sec status for agggressing in low sec. Ever. Exception: On either side of a gate leading immediately into/out of a high sec system.

    -War decs requires a monthly fee, as opposed to weekly. It could still be expensive, and it should be.

    -Wars can have self-imposed winnable conditions. Corps declaring war could declare that once they achieve certain objectives - kill 10 ships, cause 10mil Isk worth of loss, kill a CEO ship or a Barge - they have won and the war ends within 24hrs. The War Deccing corp sets the conditions, if any. If victory conditions are NOT met before the dec expires, the corp declaring war must pay a penalty to the corp that was decced.

    -Rebalance the other ships, now. Under no circumstances should a Mackinaw have a better Tank than a Myrmidon. Not. Ever. Period.


    I think these changes, and others, could save EVE. As it was intended to be. Not as the Carebear, theme park playground its become.

    for more on this: http://themittani.com/features/road-...arebear-future

  2. #2
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    ...Did you try perpetuum online? were always looking forward to new players in Statecorp, the RPS sanctioned corporation...
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    ...Did you try perpetuum online? were always looking forward to new players in Statecorp, the RPS sanctioned corporation...
    I was thinking about giving it a go. One of my main concerns regarding Perpetuum is rather silly, however. It concerns movement, namely: Does Perpetuum use WASD movement, or mouse clicking as in EVE? The latter I can manage, but the former hurts my wrists after a very short time and I have to give it up quickly.

    Also, is Perpetuum more of the risky, emergent Sandbox that I understand EVE used to be? Dont get me wrong, some high sec areas are fine. But incentive must exist for leaving those areas - for all players. EVE lacks this.

    Thanks.

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Highsec is not safe. Try flying your 77 PLEX to Jita 4-4 and see how the suicide gankers handle it.

  5. #5
    Network Hub grasskit's Avatar
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    ruined EVE? last i checked eve was just fine.


    you talk about highsec, but then propose changes to aggression, wardecs mechanics, which are systems not exclusive to highsec. then you propose changes to lowsec. so which is it then, whats the problem exactly?

    "the game is little more now than a standard theme park MMO. You mine, run missions and obtain loot. Rinse and repeat"

    uhh except it was always like that if you thats all you chose to do and stay in highsec.

    again what is your problem and moreover how it impacts eve specifically, so that its "being ruined" ? because the only things you mentioned that its more difficult to suicide gank now and running missions is boring. well duh. ok so high sec might be bit safer place than it was before, so what, how is it ruining eve exactly.
    Last edited by grasskit; 28-08-2012 at 11:07 PM.

  6. #6
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kodeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    ...Did you try perpetuum online? were always looking forward to new players in Statecorp, the RPS sanctioned corporation...
    How many active players are there in the RPS corp? It's been a while since I've tried an MMO, this one actually looks interesting.

  7. #7
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    Slowly, but surely, EVE is becoming a risk-averse Theme Park MMO. War decs now cost $50mil. More, if the corp is a member of an alliance, and more still for each member of the alliance. And this is weekly, mind you. Mining barges have larger tanks than Destroyers; Exhumers, larger than Battlecruisers. Mining ships are mining ships; Destroyers and BC are combat ships. At no time should I struggle to achieve a tank on my Myrmidon that is equivalent to - moreless, lower than - the tank on a Mackinaw.

    CCP is removing the risk from EVE. With profit being the primary motivation behind taking any action, they have removed all incentive to venture beyond Empire space, into low or null. And even in Low Sec aggressors lose security status for their actions, up to and including station and gate guns firing on them. So much for 'low security.'

    No one of these changes, taken alone, is 'the problem.' Together, however, they become straws on the camel's back. Higher war dec cost, means less chance of war decs. Bigger tanks on barges means less chance of being attacked in mining boats. Losing sec status and getting fired on by guns in low sec means less chance of aggression and ganking even there.

    Larger ore bays in mining barges and exhumers means more incentive to mine solo, or even AFK, instead of socializing with others in this, a multi player gamer. Less chance of ganks and war decs and hostility means more AFK, solo miners and less grouping or incentive to join corps.

    Each change is focused on gradually mainstreaming EVE. Which is a net negative, since it cannot compete with other mainstream MMO games. There are too many, too well established, whose focus is the mainstream audience. Real risk, and real loss, make EVE great. Removing incentive for risk taking is removing incentive to play EVE at all.

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    First a disclaimer: I've played EVE for several years, and stopped approximately a year ago.

    Now, these apocalyptic predictions are very popular on forums connected to EVE, they appear every so often. Usually they come down to "I want to shoot whatever I want without consequences." War decs are more expensive simply because they were rediculously cheap before and often abused. The barges were all but useless except for the Hulk and now they have a use. And the removal of insurance payout for ganking was long overdue, at the time I was playing the insurance payout was high enough that it was economically feasible to suicide gank for a few mill ISK (just remember the episode where self destructing BSs ws profitable, and yes I know they later changed the insurance levels).

    These suggestions boil down to completely removing mining from high sec (which will not entice miners to low sec but may increase the average mineral price somewhat), removing flagging in low sec enabling docking/gate games and shooting beginners in high sec. Plus, saying that exploration is extremely tedius while so many people are having fun in wormholes is a bit of a strech.

    What i don't understand is, if you want to play like that why don't you simply move to pirate null-sec? Not enough miners?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrki View Post
    First a disclaimer: I've played EVE for several years, and stopped approximately a year ago.

    Now, these apocalyptic predictions are very popular on forums connected to EVE, they appear every so often. Usually they come down to "I want to shoot whatever I want without consequences." War decs are more expensive simply because they were rediculously cheap before and often abused. The barges were all but useless except for the Hulk and now they have a use. And the removal of insurance payout for ganking was long overdue, at the time I was playing the insurance payout was high enough that it was economically feasible to suicide gank for a few mill ISK (just remember the episode where self destructing BSs ws profitable, and yes I know they later changed the insurance levels).

    These suggestions boil down to completely removing mining from high sec (which will not entice miners to low sec but may increase the average mineral price somewhat), removing flagging in low sec enabling docking/gate games and shooting beginners in high sec. Plus, saying that exploration is extremely tedius while so many people are having fun in wormholes is a bit of a strech.

    What i don't understand is, if you want to play like that why don't you simply move to pirate null-sec? Not enough miners?
    Actually, thats a big part of the problem. Though you might rephrase it as "too little incentive." The whole point of pirating being to look not for fair fights but for targets of opportunity, the argument that there are too few miners in low and null sec rings true. I don't want kill mails - I want ransoms, since they buy you new, shiny stuff.

    More importantly, however, is this truth: There is no incentive for a sufficient number of people to move into low or null sec. No. Incentive. And if there are so few people that areas are not contested, systems not disputed and warred over, why, null and low sec, become pointless. And of late I have flown through numerous, entirely empty, low and null sec systems. Hell, the other day I flew through 3 consecutive, empty low sec systems on the Myridian Strip and connected to it, and that's not even very far out.

    As I said I envisioned something different for EVE. And that's my own doing, my own false expectation to deal with. I get that. I envisioned a struggle to survive, to hold onto the things you earned. I envisioned a desperate place where war was common and survival itself required fighting and winning.

    What I did not expect was a carebear space full of AFK miners who can't be bothered to pay attention to one game for playing another, but who definitely CAN be bothered to cry about it when something goes wrong in the game they aren't even paying attention to.

  10. #10
    Network Hub grasskit's Avatar
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    meh there never was significant incentive, if youre a massive carebear, to move to nullsec, same as it ever was. and eve is still alive. just cause some miners got a bit of a buff, doesnt spell sudden apocalypse.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcompany View Post
    More importantly, however, is this truth: There is no incentive for a sufficient number of people to move into low or null sec. No. Incentive.
    Well if that's true, and people aren't moving there just for the gameplay it allows, then clearly most people don't want that gameplay, and so what CCP are doing is a good idea no?

    If enough people want tough PvP instead, they'll move there regardless of an in-game incentive as it's the game they want to play.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Actually and excuse me for my lack of knowledge but i kind of agree on the low-sec no population thing, i tried to be a pirate and stuff and i just couldn't there was just no one out there. Apprantly it happened ever since they took off the cap to tritanium, basically people saw the risk to great for the reward in low-sec and found they could get more money from high sec mining you see it out there nearly every astoroid belt in high sec is been stripped of everything pretty much all day.

    Its one of the reasons i quit eve sicne the faction warfare was a nice idea but wasn't developed fully i have to say didn't realy bidge the gap between newbie pvp to hardcore pvp good enough. And there wasn't really that great a reward for doing it.

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    wouldn't increasing the yields of asteroids in lower secs make people go there?

    example:
    you can mine for 1 hour in high sec to get 1000ISK (just random price)
    or you can do that in 20 minutes in low sec
    or in 5min in null.

    just increasing the payout would make people go there. or am i wrong?

  14. #14
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcompany View Post
    I was thinking about giving it a go. One of my main concerns regarding Perpetuum is rather silly, however. It concerns movement, namely: Does Perpetuum use WASD movement, or mouse clicking as in EVE? The latter I can manage, but the former hurts my wrists after a very short time and I have to give it up quickly.

    Also, is Perpetuum more of the risky, emergent Sandbox that I understand EVE used to be? Dont get me wrong, some high sec areas are fine. But incentive must exist for leaving those areas - for all players. EVE lacks this.

    Thanks.
    Sadly, yes, wasd is used. But Im assuming you can map it to whatever. (the mouse click navigation does work, but in the heat of combat, very unreliable.)
    There are "Alpha" islands, where people can mine certain minerals, but some minerals can only be found on beta. And the game is a bit sleepy at the moment, partially due to summer being a bitch in europe, and people going on holidays and stuff, but as soon as college and school starts, itll pick up again. STC is a dream to be in, and they are, actually, one of the most active corps in the game. (if not the most active)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodeen View Post
    How many active players are there in the RPS corp? It's been a while since I've tried an MMO, this one actually looks interesting.
    see above. Doesnt hurt to try, and also, there is a "starter edition" for sale om amazon, where you get, I think, 2 months worth of skill points, up front. But theres of course, the free 15day trial.


    Also, Im planning an Arena, for players from all corps to compete in. (Namely, building it, and inviting people for 3v3 fights and so on. lots of fun! :D)
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 29-08-2012 at 10:19 AM.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    wouldn't increasing the yields of asteroids in lower secs make people go there?

    example:
    you can mine for 1 hour in high sec to get 1000ISK (just random price)
    or you can do that in 20 minutes in low sec
    or in 5min in null.

    just increasing the payout would make people go there. or am i wrong?
    Actually, no. These incentives are already there. As an example, the asteroids in low sec contain more ore and better ore, therefore you can make money faster. Mission runners have lvl 5 missions which are only in low sec, and before that the best lvl 4 missions were in low sec. Exploration sites in low sec are better than the ones in high sec. And yet low sec is still mostly empty (note that there are people which successfully do all of the above in low sec).

    It is obviously not a problem of incentives. In my opinion the problem is one of risk/reward in the sense that the risk for the miners/mission runners in low sec is infinite. If you enter low sec in a mission running ship or a barge you will get ganked without a doubt. And if you choose a suboptimal ship for the purpose, simple math tells you you are better off in high sec with an optimal ship. And the risk for the pirates in low sec is basically nonexistent, you get flagged meaning you cannot dock for one minute and you get a slight decrease in security status meaning you have to rat every so often to get it up. And even if you don't, usually people use an alt to get all the stuff you need cheap from high sec. Basically, the pirates are low sec carebears and I'm going to posit that until that changes and there is some risk inolved in that lifestyle low sec will remain empty.

    If one wants to be a "hunter" looking for targets that is possible and viable and many people do that. You have the pirate null sec where you can hunt ratters, player owned null sec where you can get both ratters and miners (correlate indutry index of a system with current activity and voila), wormholes where there is no local. There are plenty of opportunities, it's up to the player to find them and not to use CCP to make players become targets. Sandbox and all that.

    edit: And just one more point. Null sec is not empty and the wormholes are not empty, not by a long shot. If anything, 0.0 is overcrowded so people do go to riskier areas and fight for them.
    Last edited by mrki; 29-08-2012 at 10:08 AM.

  16. #16
    Network Hub JayTee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcompany View Post
    Add to this that CCP has chosen to make exploring their universe as tedious as possible - try scanning down hidden locations sometime - and it all adds up to what I fear is the end of EVE online as current players know it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag

    Moon probing on the other hand. Ugh.

  17. #17
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    Wait, you have only just got into Eve, and only played it for a month and yet you didn't know what it was actually like and haven't fully explored it yet its the end of eve.

    Did you not notice the constant moaning from players about Eve, carebears, gankers, trolls, pew pew folk all are moaning, all the time, you should have gotten a fair idea of what the state of the game was.

    1 month is no time in Eve, heck I have skills training that took longer than that!

    Also 50mill Isk is nothing, nothing at all. There is still people war decing new corps and beginners for fun, and thats the problem. Eve isn't getting the new entry level players to keep the economy flowing. The high sec pricks were just annoying people for fun, because they were too scared to go to null, they needed the safety of high sec, so they could focus on the one target.

  18. #18
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    Also sounds to me a bit like the natural EVE economy that people are always so proud of coming back to bite... I mean, this is why there isn't that much piracy in the real world.

    If there are just a few pirates, the chance of being hit is low, so it's worth taking the risk sometimes. But if everyone wants to be a pirate, you're almost guaranteed to be hit and so it makes no sense to venture out there. The pirates have over-farmed their victims and driven them off. Which is kinda neat.

  19. #19
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    A good point & perspective I had not considered. In a way, the blame for sparse populations in low, null is the fault of current residents. When all new arrivals are hapless victims, new arrivals stop coming. Good point.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrki View Post
    Actually, no. These incentives are already there. As an example, the asteroids in low sec contain more ore and better ore, therefore you can make money faster. Mission runners have lvl 5 missions which are only in low sec, and before that the best lvl 4 missions were in low sec. Exploration sites in low sec are better than the ones in high sec. And yet low sec is still mostly empty (note that there are people which successfully do all of the above in low sec).
    That's because there is no player corp presence in lowsec. You cannot claim territory there and always be safe behind a wall of blue gatecamps. Lowsec is EVE as most people who only heard about the game imagine it - a lawless risk vs. reward might makes right space. It takes balls of steel to live in lowsec, and that is why it's mostly empty.


    OP is just typical PLAY THE WAY I WANT YOU TO PLAY whining, not really even worth commenting on.

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