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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    But they're all acting like Steam is the only way to do it. It's like you're all saying (you seem to be of this opinion yourself, I may be wrong), that if you don't start on Steam, your game will fail.

    .......................

    Nobody is debating that Steam sells more games than other digital pc platforms. But it is not the be all end all for the start of a games life. Anyone whose moaning that their game isn't getting on steam and thus their game will fail so why bother are just being lazy.
    I'm not going to argue these ponts other than to suggest that painting devs or anyone with such a wide brush is unhelpful at best.

    Just being in the Greenlight lineup has gotten us more exposure than we'd get with thousands of dollars in advertising, or will ever get from the "indie scene" media, who for the most part is AWOL lately AFAICT. Note that I used the narrower brush: "for the most part". But that's not necessarily their fault. If no one is listening then they move on to other types of work. Most may even have day jobs, ya think?

    Being on Steam would be very helpful in PAYING THE BILLS! Do you think indies just fly out of the sky and deposit games before you for free? We have bills like anyone else, and would like to have the best possible opportunity to pay those bills.

  2. #642
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningpet View Post
    Those stats are post Humble Bundle 3. if he has taken in all those who activated the game on Steam yet bought through HIB3, then they are extremely misleading. if he had done so (like i have seen many indies do when they post-mortem) then his Steam numbers shouldn't be that dominant, and in fact, are not even that impressive at all.
    Steam doesn't mix up activations and sales so it's fairly easy to cull them out when totting up the numbers. The figures are kosher and the divide far from unusual.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  3. #643
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    You know that for a fact?
    Last edited by burningpet; 05-10-2012 at 01:55 AM.

  4. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningpet View Post
    You know that for a fact?
    This article highlights that the period covered included a Steam sale ;)

    http://www.diygamer.com/2012/03/stea...december-2011/

    I suspect that is just sales tho - HIB3 was months earlier, that's just December's sales :)

  5. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindwedge View Post
    I'm not going to argue these ponts other than to suggest that painting devs or anyone with such a wide brush is unhelpful at best.

    Just being in the Greenlight lineup has gotten us more exposure than we'd get with thousands of dollars in advertising, or will ever get from the "indie scene" media, who for the most part is AWOL lately AFAICT. Note that I used the narrower brush: "for the most part". But that's not necessarily their fault. If no one is listening then they move on to other types of work. Most may even have day jobs, ya think?

    Being on Steam would be very helpful in PAYING THE BILLS! Do you think indies just fly out of the sky and deposit games before you for free? We have bills like anyone else, and would like to have the best possible opportunity to pay those bills.
    I do think people forget that this isn't just "artists" trying to get rich - it's people spending their own money and time in the hope that they get some sort of return on it (at least enough to cover their costs and pay their bills).

    "Indie" doesn't mean "doing it for love" (that's the proper meaning of 'amateur') - when you commit your time and money to a project, you'd like to get your money back usually.

    Simple fact is that a game on Steam will sell WAY more than a game not on Steam. It's not "a bit more", it's many, many times more and with more and more games chasing fewer and fewer monies, every little helps.

  6. #646
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningpet View Post
    You know that for a fact?
    As much as I can do, yes. I'm not entirely sure why you think they're out?

    I can tell you that from what I'm aware of and numbers I've seen (I've seen lots by virtue of being around for bloody years now), they certainly aren't unusual in any way whatsoever and any figures I've seen that contradict this usually come from outliers not the norm (alpha funding can skew for other stores/direct as an example, alpha funding successes are comparatively rare. Long established PC regular indies may also account for variances at times, also rare).

    I'm certainly seeing nothing in those numbers that sticks out as having activations skew them in any significant way.

    If you factor in that sales were in the region of 350k for HiB3, I think it's fairly safe to assume that you'd be looking at far higher numbers than those Brendon published had he counted activations too. I'd be fairly comfortable in them punting Brendon's numbers above 96k anyway. Especially given that these numbers are inclusive of a Winter Sale period.

    Still, hopefully you'll get the benefit of this first hand soon enough, y'know?
    Last edited by RobF; 05-10-2012 at 06:30 AM.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  7. #647
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    Well, yeah, rereading now i get that these are just the December sales.

    And i must say i find it extremely problematic.

    For us steam was a good platform to be on for the prestige of being on steam, maybe a system we could benefit from with certain still unannounced features that require updating a lot more regularly. A big spike in our sells graph, yes, but we never imagined it being at that scale.

    While the Winter Sale may have skewed those figures, it is still very frightening to see those differences, especially for games that do not enjoy a long tail due to an alpha model or for bigger teams that these differences can determine whether a game brakes even or profit.

  8. #648
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    Don't underestimate the effect of Steam Sales - they are a massive "open ceiling and money pours in" thing for the developers who get prominent placing (and thanks to the Internet, there's a lot of prominence to the best Steam Sale Deals)

    Remember that 2011 Winter was the 'coal' sale - with you getting rewards for hitting achievements and AZS was one of the games which did that IIRC? That means they'd have garnered a load of sales from people angling for a good reward (e.g. the Skyrim discount probably) :)

    Perhaps that prompted a load of people to cash in HIB vouchers and they are included too - who knows - but as RobF says, that sort of sales split isn't entirely unfamiliar.

    You could also look to sales figures between XBLIG and Steam for the various games which have done both - I'm fairly sure in every case the developer has done somewhere between "a lot better" and "immeasurably better" on Steam than they did on XBLIG (which even with their reputation for hiding it, is part of what's probably the world's single largest captive gamer network - XBL).
    Last edited by trjp; 05-10-2012 at 08:52 AM.

  9. #649
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    So I've been tinking with my 3D Wall of motion-sickness - it's now less likely to make you throw-up (although that option is still there of course! :)

    http://shrewdlogarithm.blogspot.co.u...most-9000.html

    It still needs some work - it has some touch support but most touch devices can't cope with the metric-tonne of images it uses (close to 9000 at last check) - in fact some desktops can't... :)

    It's not confined to WebKit browsers (and sluggish Mozilla) anymore either - it has a functional 2D 'wall' which works AOK on IE and Opera (although, ironically, it's slower than the 3D version on Chrome!!)

    Much left to do to make it slick - the movement controls need polishing but it works better than I expected anything which tries to show you 9000 images would - feedback still apprec. of course!!

  10. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    So I've been tinking with my 3D Wall of motion-sickness - it's now less likely to make you throw-up (although that option is still there of course! :)

    http://shrewdlogarithm.blogspot.co.u...most-9000.html

    It still needs some work - it has some touch support but most touch devices can't cope with the metric-tonne of images it uses (close to 9000 at last check) - in fact some desktops can't... :)

    It's not confined to WebKit browsers (and sluggish Mozilla) anymore either - it has a functional 2D 'wall' which works AOK on IE and Opera (although, ironically, it's slower than the 3D version on Chrome!!)

    Much left to do to make it slick - the movement controls need polishing but it works better than I expected anything which tries to show you 9000 images would - feedback still apprec. of course!!
    Not sure if it's intentional but when using the scroll wheel on the mouse it zooms out. Independent of which way I'm scrolling. :) Firefox 15.0.1. Otherwise, did not get sick.

  11. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrki View Post
    Not sure if it's intentional but when using the scroll wheel on the mouse it zooms out. Independent of which way I'm scrolling. :) Firefox 15.0.1. Otherwise, did not get sick.
    I fixed that (CSS3 3D perspective is an odd thing) :)

    I've been tweaking it for touchscreens today - still much work to do there but then looking at 9000 images isn't really that effective on a phone screen or a tablet really - but I'm always up for a challenge :)

  12. #652
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    I thought some of you might be interested to know that someone from Valve contacted me in relation to all the stuff I've been doing around Greenlight - asking for my feedback etc. etc.

    I replied to that as politely and constructively as I could - expecting to hear nothing but maybe a "thanks for your feedback - we'll read it and use it" but what I got back instead was MUCH more interesting...

    I've never, ever had someone reply to points I've raised by quoting actual scientific research papers (well not in relation to gaming, anyway!) It's a fascinating read but it really just emphasises the core issues with Greenlight, which are that what Valve want from it, what developers want from it and what Steam Users expect from it are rather at-odds.

    The simple fact this email was sent fills me with a lot of confidence that they will make something better from what it is now - my only real concern is that I'm not sure anyone can bring together the needs of those 3 communities in a way which isn't going to leave someone feeling 'left out'.

    I guess a lot of developers saw this as a way of getting onto Steam which was less 'opaque' than the old system - but that's really not transpired to be the case. Developers outside the Top 100 (by whatever measure Valve determine that) have to be feeling pretty left-out (most I've spoken to say they're generally moving backwards - as newer games come in and shuffle into the pile).

    There's still the core issue that some games will never win any sort of 'popularity contest' against all the other games on offer BUT that doesn't make them any less worth putting onto the service. It's fine to say "we only want the best games" but it's not fine to expect World of Goo to compete with Call of Duty.

    Anyway, I'm guessing (they didn't give any hints to this) that we'll see some changes once they announce the next 10 Greenlit titles (and I can pretty much guess what they'll be too) - I can only hope it's something which will re-engage people with the idea tho, because activity in terms of comments/collections/discussions has pretty-much flatlined.

  13. #653
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    I've never, ever had someone reply to points I've raised by quoting actual scientific research papers
    I'm only surprised that Steam does little if any A/B testing in production, unlike Google or Amazon. Research is great, but actual data tied to your exact situation is far better.

    Anyway, nice to know that they're at least aware of the issues. Good job with everything, trjp.

  14. #654
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    If Greenlight is going to be 10 titles selected per month they might as well scrap it. It was supposed to help Valve not miss good games instead of greatly reducing the chance of anything indie making it onto Steam. After all several publishers have been forced to get Greenlight approval that previously simply got to publish on Steam, if that's how it's going to go down Desura is going to become mandatory for gaming.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Anyway, I'm guessing (they didn't give any hints to this) that we'll see some changes once they announce the next 10 Greenlit titles (and I can pretty much guess what they'll be too) - I can only hope it's something which will re-engage people with the idea tho, because activity in terms of comments/collections/discussions has pretty-much flatlined.
    That's good news for us indies. Thanks for the read.
    Looking forward to seeing the changes/enhancements..

  16. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDR_11k View Post
    If Greenlight is going to be 10 titles selected per month they might as well scrap it.
    I don't think 10 titles is a problem in itself (although there should be months where there are more - and some where there are less of course) - I think the problem is that by assigning an arbitrary 'position' to a game and then taking the Top 10 (barring any problematic titles) you're running a popularity contest and some games which people want to buy will NEVER win that (back to Portal here!!).

    My suggestions basically amounted to

    1 - reinstate the visitor/favourite stats for the public - so people have SOME idea which games are trending and whether their efforts to promote games (either theirs or just ones they like) are having some effect - but make it clear that the biggest numbers don't necessarily equate to 'success' as there are other factors.

    2 - remove the Top 100 idea and simply give developers the public stats plus an 'upvote' count and a promise that after a set period their game will be reviewed and either accepted or declined/removed from Greenlight. Make it clear that this review will take into account loads of factors - not just raw numbers and the developers can, perhaps, resubmit games after a period of time.

    3 - create a 'creators club' forum where people who upload to Greenlight can share their questions/ideas/issues. This could double as a peer-review forum to catch bad submissions/clones, an advice centre for developers and Valve would get all their feedback in one place. Also - developers who work within their game forums tend to make better games - so developers who work in the "creators club" are improving their chances...

    4 - change the question "Would you buy this" to "Would you like this game in your library" because you can't ask someone if they'll buy something which doesn't have a price, you're assigning a value judgement people cannot make and some games could even be free anyway :)

    That probably means I just spiked the chances of those things happening I guess :(

  17. #657
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    Ooh - they replied to that message too :)

    First and foremost, the term "survey" crept-in and that's really what we've got here isn't it? Valve are asking us to rate stuff we might like to buy - and that's not much fun. I only do surveys when they have free stuff at the end of them (I once got a whole box of choccy bars for 10 mins of my time - but the Internet can't do things that awesome can it?) :)

    The other obvious issue is that they do believe all games should compete head-to-head - I highlighted that a lot of recent success stories on Steam (Dungeons of Dredmor, CSTW/BoD, Beat Hazard, Terraria, Jamestown) wouldn't have fared well on Greenlight (and yes I threw Portal in for the laughs) because I really worry that they put so much value into 'the view of the mob' (see Homer's Car)

    So where does that leave us? No idea really, this is uncharted country. They do have plans for a 'creators club' but obviously that requires Valve's time and I suspect that's the issue they're trying to solve. It's interesting that they seem to view everything in terms of 'bandwidth' - it's a word they use a lot and not in it's "raw data" sense but in the whole "we as a company have only so much bandwidth in people/time/data terms" and I suspect that reviewing submissions is a limited bandwidth task for them.

    Hey ho - I've gotten some great feedback from here and other places on my tinkerings and I'll keep updating those as long as people are interested (the ImageWall thing was updated yesterday if you've not tried it) - and there are some interesting titles appearing on GL atm (remember that I run an RSS and Twitter for new games to save you checking the site!)

  18. #658
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    Another 21 games have been greenlit.

    - The Stanley Parable
    - Interstellar Marines
    - Blockspace
    - Lost Story: The Last Days of Earth
    - Postal 2 Complete
    - Folk Tale
    - Yogventures
    - Miner Wars 2081
    - Neotokyo
    - Gnomoria
    - Fly'n
    - Afterfall Insanity Extended Edition
    - Perpetuum
    - Contrast
    - Secrets of Grindea
    - Misamata
    - Octodad: Dadliest Catch
    - The Intruder
    - Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams
    - Air Buccaneers
    - Forge

  19. #659
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Hooray! Out of those games, Fly'n is a definite buy, maybe The Stanley Parable too, depending on the price, and I'll keep an eye on Miasmata as well, maybe it'll turn out to be good.

    Linky:

    - The Stanley Parable
    - Interstellar Marines
    - Blockscape
    - Lost Story: The Last Days of Earth
    - Postal 2 Complete
    - Folk Tale
    - Yogventures!
    - Miner Wars 2081
    - Neotokyo
    - Gnomoria
    - Fly'n
    - Afterfall Insanity Extended Edition
    - Perpetuum
    - Contrast
    - Secrets of Grindea
    - Miasmata
    - Octodad: Dadliest Catch
    - The Intruder
    - Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams
    - Air Buccaneers
    - Forge
    Last edited by LTK; 15-10-2012 at 08:51 PM.

  20. #660
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Yay! Octodad 2

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