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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...
    Frame that and send it to Gabe...

  2. #222
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...
    You mean pay $100 to submit a game and get it on Steam for sure? I'm down with that. It's commensurate with the $99/year fee Apple charges for developers on their app stores. It would make me very happy for Steam to transition to the App Store model, where almost everything is allowed, but only the best get featured.

    But $100 for Valve to deign to consider and reject your game (as with, eg, New Star Soccer)? lolno
    Last edited by TillEulenspiegel; 05-09-2012 at 02:28 AM.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    But what if the majority of people don't want it on Steam? What if that company artificially inflated their count to 100k?
    I'm still struggling to see why you would not want a game on Steam. It's not like it's in your way is it? No-one is forcing you to play it.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...
    I can't see this being anything more then a stop gap measure for the time being.

    Greenlight is clearly more then just a new submission process for game developers. Valve seem pretty happy to experiment with what are now fairly conventional social networking/marketing/crowdsourcing mechanics to improve their platform.

  5. #225
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    The problem of false reviews/support has actually hit the book industry lately. With the rise in self-publishing, some writers are paying for services where, for a nominal fee, their book is sent to a bunch of "readers" who will write "reviews" on all the major sites. While there is no guarantee (my ass), said "readers" are usually VERY flattering. http://www.harryjconnolly.com/blog/?p=6822 is an interesting commentary on it that provides links and allows me to advertise an author I really like.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I'm still struggling to see why you would not want a game on Steam. It's not like it's in your way is it? No-one is forcing you to play it.
    Take a look at the Android App Store. There is a LOT of garbage in there.
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  6. #226
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    And while I think 100 bucks is a bit much, it really isn't that bad if you think about it. Especially because, if Steam "supports" it, pretty much every other DD service will leap at it.

    MS charges out the ass to use XBOX Live and go through "verification"
    I don't know what Sony charges, but I imagine they charge for "verification" too

    This is basically Steam charging for "verification" as it were. The only difference is that it is pending "proof" that the game will sell.

    And if 100 bucks is going to make or break your development costs, it is probably best you didn't get on Steam in the first place. Hear me out. Odds are the beta testing is a very limited pool who are all fans. Look at Elemental for why that doesn't work ("Oh, that is probably a feature. I know Stardock wouldn't bugger this up. I'll ignore it") :p. So odds are a bunch of bugs and issues will be found via the Steam community. And if your development costs couldn't take a 100 dollar hit, odds are you don't have the resources to FIX those bugs. So if they are found early and people stop buying, the early adopters are boned.
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  7. #227
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    Just to be clear - we're not down on $100 because it's $100, we're down on it because it's a shitty stopgap solution to a situation they SHOULD have seen coming before launch and using 'charidee' to deflect criticism is a low blow.

    It's also 'per game' I think - and not a once-off fee - which will deter people from listing because they have a series of games or whatever!?

    The way it was before tho, you had to be stupid NOT to put your game on there - it was free publicity (at least a few hundred hits an hour!!) - it's possibly even worth $100 to do it even now (just make it look like your game isn't totally shit and you'll get somewhere!!)

    Charging customers money to solve YOUR problem and YOUR inability just to moderate content is still fucking cheeky tho. As LewieP said in Twitter, people would do it for you - peer review (review by other developers) works well for XBLIG and so on - many good solutions exist which don't mistake wealth for talent.

    I'd made that mistake with Valve upto today - ah well, hey ho.

  8. #228
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    Dejobaan are offering to lend $100 to people who want to submit games to Steam (see Twitter)

    I've suggested they simply setup an account and post anything they like on behalf of the developers - that way Steam get less money - but then, of course, they're doing Valve's job for them!!

    If I step-back from this for a second I'm just amazed we've gotten where we are in less than a week. Steam has gone from 'walled garden' to "armoured fortress with a pay-to-peek window" and I don't think that's improved it in ANY way for ANYone.

    I really had hoped Steam would become more interesting with this and the non-game content and stuff - but there's a really grimy and soiled aspect to this which is worse than some of the games on Greenlight :)

  9. #229
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    Trjp you're overreacting. No one really has much of an idea of what's going on behind the scenes. Greenlight could have been flooded with submissions from crapware publishers trying to get the dozens of shitty titles they own listed. The fact that changes are being implemented within a short time frame is a positive sign. And stopgaps usually are ugly. That's why it's so obviously a stopgap and not the end times like the way you're carrying on suggests. Remember, it's only been a week if that.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...
    I thought that too. And if they don't want to go the full app store model because of the influx of trash, they could create a seperate section in the Library called "Steam Underground". 10k+ sales would get your moved into Steam proper.

    Before 10k sales, your game wouldn't be listed in the main store, but you'd get to use the Steam platform.
    Last edited by Stardog; 05-09-2012 at 05:40 AM.

  11. #231
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Take a look at the Android App Store. There is a LOT of garbage in there.
    Exactly. Hell even the iOS App Store, with its stricter requirements, has a lot of trash. People are complaining about having to wade through shit on Greenlight as it is. That said, there are plenty of crap games on Steam, so maybe it's a moot point in the long run.

  12. #232
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    Wow. They took on my advice. Changed the thumbs up/down to "buy or not". :D
    Wonder if I'd stand a chance getting a job there... ;)

  13. #233
    These 'submission' fees keeps the entry real. No more trolling trash. It helps the legit entry get more views and filter away the trash. Something I wanted so badly.

    I don't see why this is a bad idea. Oh you want free ? Enjoy the joke entries.
    And if you think $100 is too much to get some exposure on Steam and hopefully be featured / at least gets people talking about it - then you're in the wrong line of business. You should try door to door, it's cheaper amirite?
    Last edited by r3dknight; 05-09-2012 at 09:45 AM.

  14. #234
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    $100 to keep trash out sounds reasonable.

    Having the "no" vote remove it from your sight sounds reasonable. Having it affect the prospect of a project sounds retarded and I think Steam will cop on to that if they haven't already. No reason that because 10K people want a game and 30K don't doesn't mean it shouldn't be sold.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by baby snot View Post
    Trjp you're overreacting. No one really has much of an idea of what's going on behind the scenes.
    Including Valve, I think ;)

    My 'irk' is that releasing a system where ANYONE could upload a "game" - with no verification or moderation of what they uploaded - was naive in the extreme. To turn around within days and say "Oh - that didn't work so now we're going to ask for money" is a lazy and shoddy workaround (and using charity to deflect criticism is low).

    They talk endlessly about their 'community' but they're not really doing anything with it. The 'community' has it within their power to create a peer review team - their community actually weeded-out the stupid titles pretty bloody quickly anyway AND the rate of those appearing was in decline (70 a day at first - down to just a handful yesterday).

    The voting system remains opaque (it was positively obscure before - why don't they ENGAGE their users instead of treating them like lab rats. They'd not release a game which was half-baked and then fix it as they went along, would they??

    Then there's the fact that to hit '100%', a game (currently) requires around 2 million unique visitors which is an astonishing requirement (one about 80% of their current catalog probably couldn't pull-off). Yes, they can vary it BUT that's not 'empowering their community' and unlike their willingness to trade common-sense for cash, they're not rushing into doing that are they?

    I don't think I'm overreacting - I just get annoyed when I see something I could do way better being done so poorly by people who have the resources to do far, far better.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    $100 to keep trash out sounds reasonable.
    Not $200 or $500? Hell, to get a 'pass' from Greenlight a game will needs around 2 million unique visitors, - even if they only sell 10% of that at $10 that's 2 million bucks (before commissions and taxes) so why not $100,000??? :)

    It's not the sum of money - it's the fact they've decided to use money as a measure of 'quality' which never EVER ends well.

  17. #237
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Not $200 or $500? Hell, to get a 'pass' from Greenlight a game will needs around 2 million unique visitors, - even if they only sell 10% of that at $10 that's 2 million bucks (before commissions and taxes) so why not $100,000??? :)

    It's not the sum of money - it's the fact they've decided to use money as a measure of 'quality' which never EVER ends well.
    They're not using money as a measure of quality. They're using it as a deterrent from me or you or anyone going to Greenlight and making a "HALO VS HALF LIFE 3 SUPER STREET FIGHTER TEKKEN MARIO 64 TEAM RACING" troll project, because trolls are less likely to be willing to spend $100 on that as an actual dev who want's the chance to get his game on Steam.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    They're not using money as a measure of quality. They're using it as a deterrent from me or you or anyone going to Greenlight and making a "HALO VS HALF LIFE 3 SUPER STREET FIGHTER TEKKEN MARIO 64 TEAM RACING" troll project, because trolls are less likely to be willing to spend $100 on that as an actual dev who want's the chance to get his game on Steam.
    The 'community' fixed all of those by reporting them tho - around 2-300 of them since it launched.

    The fact they decided after a few days that it wasn't good enough than the 'community' would weed out the crap speaks volumes to me...

  19. #239
    Lesser Hivemind Node johnki's Avatar
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    Meh, they have made moving around Greenlight an absolute hell. The "generate new list" button doesn't work unless there are already open slots from where you have rated games that are in your current list. The only way you can get a new list is to change the filters, and even then, it seems like you get relatively the same list, only with the genres you don't want to rate filtered out. And then, on top of that, you get one page, and one page only. So you get to view what it decides to give you and ONLY what it decides to give you. There's not even a way to go through the entire list before rating what it gave you.

  20. #240
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    The 'community' fixed all of those by reporting them tho - around 2-300 of them since it launched.

    The fact they decided after a few days that it wasn't good enough than the 'community' would weed out the crap speaks volumes to me...
    And this stops crap from getting there in the first place. I fail to see how this is a major issue for anyone. Valve make no money on it, users don't have to waste their time reporting fake/troll projects and devs don't have to worry about fake/troll projects taking up any visual space for any amount of time?

    It also means more people might use it. I don't use the android app store because of the volume of crap in it. I wouldn't use greenlight if it had the same volume of crap in it. I only want to view potential projects that will actually possible come to light and not have to see fake projects in place of real ones. I'm sure devs also feel the same. They'd want you to see their project in your list/on the page and not "half life 3 for realsies!"

    And the money goes to a charity, which is an added bonus.

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