Something coming from Obsidian and J.E. Sawyer?

[b0rsuk]

Don't be so close-minded. "How will this fit into the story of the game ?" Pffffftttt.

There are two kinds of games.
A) The game tells you a story
B) You tell a story to your buddies after finishing the game.

Examples of the "B" type games are Dominions 3 and FTL. Given a sufficiently flexible and interesting game, it's no longer necessary to imitate a book.

[Jesus_Phish]

Don't be so close-minded. "How will this fit into the story of the game ?" Pffffftttt.

There are two kinds of games.
A) The game tells you a story
B) You tell a story to your buddies after finishing the game.

Examples of the "B" type games are Dominions 3 and FTL. Given a sufficiently flexible and interesting game, it's no longer necessary to imitate a book.

We have plenty of examples of type B's going around at the moment. More and more games are opening up to being about what you as the player do within the confines of the game, as opposed to the actions of the games story.

I hope Obsidians will be more like option A as I'm yearning for another good game like this. I'm hardly being closed minded, I'd just rather they make the game they're suggesting they will rather than try make ANOTHER open world game with a million and one things to do. If they can find a way to make a pickable stronghold location work and still tell me a great story then fantastic, if not, I'd rather just a great story again.

[Internet]

Don't be so close-minded. "How will this fit into the story of the game ?" Pffffftttt.
There are two kinds of games.
A) The game tells you a story
B) You tell a story to your buddies after finishing the game.
Examples of the "B" type games are Dominions 3 and FTL. Given a sufficiently flexible and interesting game, it's no longer necessary to imitate a book.

But that's not the game Obsidian is selling. Nothing from their kickstarter has mentioned emergent gameplay, and they aren't particularly known for it in any of their games. This is obviously a game with somewhat strong (probably not new Bioware strong) authorial control. This isn't more or less valid than other types of games, just different.

The story should be important, because they mention it in their kickstarter pitch.

[Nalano]

But that's not the game Obsidian is selling.

Nor it is any game Obsidian has ever sold. Their games are "tell me a story" games.

[Jesus_Phish]

Nor it is any game Obsidian has ever sold. Their games are "tell me a story" games.

And they're pretty good ones too!

[Internet]

You've misunderstood. I didn't say the game should be about these things, nor did I say there should be systems specifically for them. What I said was that the player should have to freedom to have their stronghold anywhere they desire, whether it's in a recently cleared out dungeon, in a cave by the sea or in the town sewers. You can even have quests for them still. In fact, what would work really well would be to have quests for each class that basically needs the player to form some sort of base. Choosing where to put the base would change the way the quests are completed. Then, instead of gaining a stronghold and receiving quests for it, you'd be gaining quests that push you towards setting up your own stronghold. A stronghold will be a strategic option for the player and not just a piece of content in which 99% of the players actually bother with (because gamers tend to be completionists).

That's a good idea, but unless locations are fairly similar, it would require a pretty huge amount of work to get working properly. The ability to put a stronghold anywhere would introduce a huge number of edge cases, which in turn means a huge number of bugs. It's questionable whether the cost of trade-offs, especially to Obsidian's reputation, would be worth it.

Obsidian may not be accountable to their publisher, but their reputation and with it the ability to get future funding is on trial here. Introducing new levels of complexity with it's increasing bugs is probably not the best thing for them to do right now.

For reference, this game is being produced on a small budget where Origin had 270 (210 producing) employees in 1997 (four years after U7:part 2, but it's the best I could find). 210 employees would take $17m to pay for a year, well beyond the realm of this kickstarter. Even if you divide the number into even teams by game by year, you get about 70 people per dev team, which is still $5.6m per year. Neither of those amounts seem feasible for this kickstarter.

http://web.archive.org/web/199703301...out/index.html

[pakoito]

We have plenty of examples of type B's going around at the moment.

After more than 10 years of few to none, I'd say still not enough.

[Jesus_Phish]

After more than 10 years of few to none, I'd say still not enough.

But we're almost certainly not going to get one from Obsidian. And we've been getting more than we have of old school tell me a story rpgs, hence the immense popularity of recent kickstarters involving the idea. In short, we've too many man shooters/mmos and not nearly enough of anything else.

That's a good idea, but unless locations are fairly similar, it would require a pretty huge amount of work to get working properly. The ability to put a stronghold anywhere would introduce a huge number of edge cases, which in turn means a huge number of bugs. It's questionable whether the cost of trade-offs, especially to Obsidian's reputation, would be worth it.

Seconded on this.

[Wizardry]

We have plenty of examples of type B's going around at the moment. More and more games are opening up to being about what you as the player do within the confines of the game, as opposed to the actions of the games story.

Have you ever played a JRPG? They are all "type A" and there are probably as many of them in any single year than there have been CRPGs ever. "Type B", as b0rsuk calls it, is exceedingly rare in the one genre outside of perhaps strategy games that demands it.

But that's not the game Obsidian is selling. Nothing from their kickstarter has mentioned emergent gameplay, and they aren't particularly known for it in any of their games. This is obviously a game with somewhat strong (probably not new Bioware strong) authorial control. This isn't more or less valid than other types of games, just different.

Ah, but emergent gameplay is effectively the one thing that differentiates an RPG from a (non-linear) adventure game. Tactical combat systems themselves are emergent within themselves, but emergent gameplay that encompasses exploration, NPC interaction and all other aspects of gameplay is a rare thing, especially these days.

[Jesus_Phish]

Have you ever played a JRPG? They are all "type A" and there are probably as many of them in any single year than there have been CRPGs ever. "Type B", as b0rsuk calls it, is exceedingly rare in the one genre outside of perhaps strategy games that demands it.


Ah, but emergent gameplay is effectively the one thing that differentiates an RPG from a (non-linear) adventure game. Tactical combat systems themselves are emergent within themselves, but emergent gameplay that encompasses exploration, NPC interaction and all other aspects of gameplay is a rare thing, especially these days.

I have played JRPGs, so perhaps I should be more specific. We haven't had many games in the vein of what Obsidian are proposing in the last ten years, that is an old style isometric role playing game with pauseable real time combat, a rich world and a strong supporting cast. We've barely even gotten anything like in the vein of this.

Do I need to be more specific than this?

[Wizardry]

But we're almost certainly not going to get one from Obsidian. And we've been getting more than we have of old school tell me a story rpgs, hence the immense popularity of recent kickstarters involving the idea.

Why do you say that? How many "old-school tell me a story" RPGs have their been recently compared to "old-school let me do what I want" RPGs? The fact of the matter is that the only games with freedom these days seem to be action games with some light RPG elements. When was the last game in which you had to create a party that gave you a world to explore how you liked? Compare that to a game in which you form a party and follow a storyline from beginning to end in a rather linear fashion.

[Internet]

Ah, but emergent gameplay is effectively the one thing that differentiates an RPG from a (non-linear) adventure game. Tactical combat systems themselves are emergent within themselves, but emergent gameplay that encompasses exploration, NPC interaction and all other aspects of gameplay is a rare thing, especially these days.

Regardless of the definition of RPG, the strongest claim of the kickstarter is that they will emulate the Infinity engine games, and the Infinity engine didn't have a ton of emergent gameplay outside the tactics (especially pathing), and the occasional quest optimization. Since this is what they claim to be able to deliver, this is what they need to work towards.

The use of an emergent stronghold system, while fascinating, would be a misallocation of resources because it would require a great deal of work and attention, that other systems could use.

[Wizardry]

The use of an emergent stronghold system, while fascinating, would be a misallocation of resources because it would require a great deal of work and attention, that other systems could use.

It's not an "emergent stronghold system"! There is no system! Just the ability to make use of space in the game world in a more in-depth way.

[Internet]

It's not an "emergent stronghold system"! There is no system! Just the ability to make use of space in the game world in a more in-depth way.

Then that ability would increase edge-cases, bug count, and churn through resources to achieve something that's only partially aligned at best with the Kickstarter goals. Having strongholds in a fixed location is a compromise to limited resources, and they're not sure if they can make that compromise at all.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Then that ability would increase edge-cases

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Increasing the amount of stuff to test doesn't somehow increase the number of "edge cases". I'm not even sure what you're imagining would be an edge case in a scenario like this.

[Wizardry]

Then that ability would increase edge-cases, bug count, and churn through resources to achieve something that's only partially aligned at best with the Kickstarter goals. Having strongholds in a fixed location is a compromise to limited resources, and they're not sure if they can make that compromise at all.

Aren't conditionals the most likely source of logical errors? This is probably the reason why Troika and Obsidian games are so buggy. Having to lock/unlock content based on race and class is a big burden on RPG developers. Simply allowing characters to lock doors, perhaps even seal them more permanently, push objects around, put items in containers and split from one another, with perhaps more pressing resource management issues such as time, health, money and energy would be far easier to implement in a relatively bug free way. Independent systems all coming together. That's your stronghold right there, and the bonus is that it doesn't get in the way of plot. Result!

[deano2099]

No companions are important to the story in Baldur's Gate or either Icewind Dale (they don't have any). Only one companion is important to the story of Baldur's Gate II, and she happens to drive the plot for most of the game.

There's more to story than plot. It's world-building. They have backgrounds and sometimes sub-plots that tie into the main thrust of the story. And there's at least two NPCs crucial to the plot in BG2.

Don't be so close-minded. "How will this fit into the story of the game ?" Pffffftttt.

There are two kinds of games.
A) The game tells you a story
B) You tell a story to your buddies after finishing the game.

Examples of the "B" type games are Dominions 3 and FTL. Given a sufficiently flexible and interesting game, it's no longer necessary to imitate a book.

Obsidian make type A games. It's the bit they are good at. There's a reason Michael Bay never does quiet introspective dramas. You want a completely different type of game, which is fine, but I can't think of anyone worse outside of Telltale than bloody Obsidian to make that sort of game. It'd be like getting Katy Price for a swimsuit modelling shoot and only photographing her from behind or the waist down.

[Wizardry]

Obsidian make type A games. It's the bit they are good at. There's a reason Michael Bay never does quiet introspective dramas. You want a completely different type of game, which is fine, but I can't think of anyone worse outside of Telltale than bloody Obsidian to make that sort of game. It'd be like getting Katy Price for a swimsuit modelling shoot and only photographing her from behind or the waist down.

Except "type A" is in vogue right now, what with BioWare, Obsidian, CD Projekt and others making this sort of game. So what's the big deal with Obsidian doing a Kickstarter anyway when they've been making the kind of games they want to make since their inception? Surely the whole point of this is that they can make something different that publishers just won't back in this day and age. A story heavy real-time with pause game with companions to recruit? They are a dime a dozen these days.

[deano2099]

So what's the big deal with Obsidian doing a Kickstarter anyway when they've been making the kind of games they want to make since their inception?

So that they can make the game they want to make, rather than just the kind of game they want to make.

[Internet]

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Increasing the amount of stuff to test doesn't somehow increase the number of "edge cases". I'm not even sure what you're imagining would be an edge case in a scenario like this.

Unless every house, cave, and whatever was the same, there would constantly be issues with pathing, issues with clipping, and issues with decorations not working right, etc. We tend to overlook these flaws in open games because they provide us the ability to tell our own story, but they exist in far greater quantities than linear games or games with a lot of authorial control. Obsidian would keep its reputation for making buggy games if it attempted a bunch of emergent systems.

But the worse part is that to keep the world reactive they would need even more if-then tags for people and the narrative to react appropriately. Instead of if-player has a stronghold then say this, it would need if player has a stronghold here x4 then say this, this, this, or this.

It's increasing mechanical complexity at the cost of resources or written complexity. They did this for Storm of Zehir, which was the inferior expansion of NWN 2.