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  1. #221
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Because there's very few of these games around.

    Because the majority of the games they've made have been licensed to them from Bioware.

    Because the members guys who work there now have collectively created or worked on almost every major RPG of this type since their inception including Baulders Gate, Arcanum, Fallout (all it's incantations), Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, Planescape, Kotor. This is essentially the RPG gaming equivalent of the dead members of The Beatles rising from their grave to play another tour.

    Because people who love those games are likely gagging for another game like those mentioned.

    List to me the games that you are claiming are a dime a dozen please? The latest I can think of is Inquisitor, hardly pushed out by a publish or any renown.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    Unless every house, cave, and whatever was the same, there would constantly be issues with pathing, issues with clipping, and issues with decorations not working right, etc.
    What? I don't think anyone is proposing a "build your own house" style mini-game. Like I said earlier, this is an RPG and not The Sims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    Obsidian would keep its reputation for making buggy games if it attempted a bunch of emergent systems.
    As if their reputation is more important than the quality of their games. I think most gamers would prefer a good game to come out of them (for once) at the expense of their reputation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    But the worse part is that to keep the world reactive they would need even more if-then tags for people and the narrative to react appropriately. Instead of if-player has a stronghold then say this, it would need if player has a stronghold here x4 then say this, this, this, or this.
    What? Absolutely not. Why would you need if-then-else statements for? The whole point of the design is to reduce the number of if-then-else statements. An NPC doesn't need to know you've got a stronghold because there is no such in-game concept as a stronghold. There's just world space to use. If you want an NPC to visit your "stronghold" then you can direct an NPC to the location of the space you call a stronghold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    It's increasing mechanical complexity at the cost of resources or written complexity. They did this for Storm of Zehir, which was the inferior expansion of NWN 2.
    Sure. I much prefer mechanical complexity to written complexity, because this is a game after all. Storm of Zehir sucks because it sucks. They've also produced rubbish games that are all about written complexity, like Alpha Protocol. It's largely meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Because people who love those games are likely gagging for another game like those mentioned.
    Why? Didn't they enjoy Dragon Age 2?
    Last edited by Wizardry; 25-09-2012 at 10:20 PM.

  3. #223
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Why? Didn't they enjoy Dragon Age 2?
    Oh well that's alright then. We got two very watery rpgs, the second which was so rushed out the door it contained so much copy pasta, (which I'll add now to save you the trouble that I did enjoyed both games to a degree), so we shouldn't want any more, I understand. It's wrong of me to want more of what I like.

    Could you please list the rest of the dime a dozen games that have come out recently for me please? I've missed them and would love to play them.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Oh well that's alright then. We got two very watery rpgs, the second which was so rushed out the door it contained so much copy pasta, (which I'll add now to save you the trouble that I did enjoyed both games to a degree), so we shouldn't want any more, I understand. It's wrong of me to want more of what I like.

    Could you please list the rest of the dime a dozen games that have come out recently for me please? I've missed them and would love to play them.
    Sure, though it depends on your definition of "recent".

    Dragon Age: Origins (and expansion)
    Dragon Age 2
    Game of Thrones
    Neverwinter Nights 2 (and expansion)
    Drakensang: The Dark Eye
    Drakensang: The River of Time (and expansion)

  5. #225
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    [QUOTE=Wizardry;194607]What? I don't think anyone is proposing a "build your own house" style mini-game. Like I said earlier, this is an RPG and not The Sims.

    As if their reputation is more important than the quality of their games. I think most gamers would prefer a good game to come out of them (for once) at the expense of their reputation.

    What? Absolutely not. Why would you need if-then-else statements for? The whole point of the design is to reduce the number of if-then-else statements. An NPC doesn't need to know you've got a stronghold because there is no such in-game concept as a stronghold. There's just world space to use. If you want an NPC to visit your "stronghold" then you can direct an NPC to the location of the space you call a stronghold
    ./QUOTE]

    So a stronghold would have no visual reactivity at all? Your character would take it over, leave a band of men there and it would stay the same? You would expect people to at least leave a campfire or somesuch, and as soon as you decide that a campfire needs to be placed, you run into problems of where to place, how does it not end in a wall, what happens if it doesn't appear at all?

    For the most part quality of a game is reputation, and reputation is the ability to get funding to make more games. A game can be good with very few features. To make this a good game, they have to deliver the features as advertised. And they've made plenty of good games. If you don't think they've made any good games, why are you repeatedly posting on a thread about their kickstarter?

    A villager NPC wouldn't notice if you kicked old widow Johansen out of her house and now a shady group of men stay there? Or that you took over evil baron Vilius' castle, and now you're their feudal overlord? A king wouldn't react to you claiming one of his baronies? All of these things require if then statements. The simple systems that create emergent gameplay come at the cost of reactivity, characterization, or quality of writing. Those things may or may not be important to different players, but they've made an implicit promise to deliver them which grants them the utmost primacy in this case.
    Last edited by Internet; 25-09-2012 at 11:29 PM.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    So a stronghold would have no visual reactivity at all? Your character would take it over, leave a band of men there and it would stay the same? You would expect people to at least leave a campfire or somesuch, and as soon as you decide that a campfire needs to be placed, you run into problems of where to place, how does it not end in a wall, what happens if it doesn't appear at all?
    So like placing a trap then... or dropping an item on the floor...

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    For the most part quality of a game is reputation, and reputation is the ability to get funding to make more games. A game can be good with very few features. To make this a good game, they have to deliver the features as advertised. And they've made plenty of good games. If you don't think they've made any good games, why are you repeatedly posting on a thread about their kickstarter?
    Because this Kickstarter is their best chance to create something good. It's not like a publisher will fund a good RPG. I liked Fallout and Fallout 2, and I liked The Temple of Elemental Evil and some aspects of Arcanum. I also didn't mind Icewind Dale (decent combat with the ability to make your own party). These games were worked on by some of the people working on this Kickstarter project!

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    The simple systems that create emergent gameplay come at the cost of reactivity...
    What am I reading? Reactivity is exactly what emergent gameplay gives you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    A villager NPC wouldn't notice if you kicked old widow Johansen out of her house and now a shady group of men stay there? Or that you took over evil baron Vilius' castle, and now you're their feudal overlord? A king wouldn't react to you claiming one of his baronies? All of these things require if then statements.
    Yes. That all requires if statements. In fact, Crusader Kings 2 is a game made up entirely of if statements. An infinite amount of them in fact. That's why the game is infinitely large and comes on infinite DVDs. It also took infinitely long to code.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Sure, though it depends on your definition of "recent".

    Dragon Age: Origins (and expansion)
    Dragon Age 2
    Game of Thrones
    Neverwinter Nights 2 (and expansion)
    Drakensang: The Dark Eye
    Drakensang: The River of Time (and expansion)
    Versus:
    Oblivion (and expansions)
    Fallout 3 (and expansions)
    New Vegas (and expansions)
    Divinity: The Dragon Knight Saga
    Risen
    Risen 2
    Skyrim
    Two Worlds 2

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Versus:
    Oblivion (and expansions)
    Fallout 3 (and expansions)
    New Vegas (and expansions)
    Divinity: The Dragon Knight Saga
    Risen
    Risen 2
    Skyrim
    Two Worlds 2
    And notice how all of those games are:
    1) Action games.
    2) Single character.

    That's like me including games like The Witcher and the Mass Effects (which I didn't on purpose), even though they don't have a fully controllable party and all have action combat. Opening up the world of an Infinite Engine style game doesn't result in Oblivion.

    Now name me some games that would actually be similar to Project Eternity but with open world/sandbox gameplay. They don't even exist any more. Wasteland 2 is on the horizon, however.
    Last edited by Wizardry; 26-09-2012 at 03:28 AM.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    So like placing a trap then... or dropping an item on the floor...


    Because this Kickstarter is their best chance to create something good. It's not like a publisher will fund a good RPG. I liked Fallout and Fallout 2, and I liked The Temple of Elemental Evil and some aspects of Arcanum. I also didn't mind Icewind Dale (decent combat with the ability to make your own party). These games were worked on by some of the people working on this Kickstarter project!

    What am I reading? Reactivity is exactly what emergent gameplay gives you.

    Yes. That all requires if statements. In fact, Crusader Kings 2 is a game made up entirely of if statements. An infinite amount of them in fact. That's why the game is infinitely large and comes on infinite DVDs. It also took infinitely long to code.
    The difference is that the game is automatically placing the items on the floor unless you want to play a sim style house game, and automatic placement frequently results in errors.

    They've already made good games in a few different genres. I think you're conflating genres you don't like with bad games.

    I meant to say narrative reactivity, and then removed that because narrative isn't quite right. You lose npcs in the world responding to your actions while maintaining quality writing. That's why everyone makes their own stories in emergent games, because it's very difficult to supply them.

    I never got Crusader Kings 2, so I can't really speak to it, but if I had to guess I'd bet that you don't walk around talking to NPCs. I'd guess that there's little writing at all, and certainly not the "deep conversations" Obsidian promised to deliver. Having an npc respond in character requires something like an if then statement.

  10. #230
    Lesser Hivemind Node icupnimpn2's Avatar
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    To digress

    How do you have a game that's mostly unplanned and then say, at $800K we'll add another area. At $1MM we'll add another character. These statements make little sense if the number of areas for the game is not yet set or announced and the character roster is not completely baked. Are they adding 1 area to 7 or 1 area to 3... I don't even know. Might as well add N to X. Weak, weak stretch goals for these reasons.

    Sorry if anyone else has brought this up and it has been discussed to death. Couldn't bring myself to read the whole thread.

  11. #231
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by icupnimpn2 View Post
    To digress

    How do you have a game that's mostly unplanned and then say, at $800K we'll add another area. At $1MM we'll add another character. These statements make little sense if the number of areas for the game is not yet set or announced and the character roster is not completely baked. Are they adding 1 area to 7 or 1 area to 3... I don't even know. Might as well add N to X. Weak, weak stretch goals for these reasons.

    Sorry if anyone else has brought this up and it has been discussed to death. Couldn't bring myself to read the whole thread.
    they are obsidian not newbs. they know what awaits them, they know the costs, complexity of the project. Those goals are also not direct representation of the costs involved in implementing the feature but mere target to work as incentive for people to donate money.

    Furthermore, they clearly have a plan for this game. It is not something they came up a day before asking kickstarter whether they can start a project. They might not have done any programing before it started (although concept most likely existed before) but what the game will contain was known for quite some time

    When it comes to creating characters, worlds and things like that Obsidian knows how to do it and what costs that will involve.

  12. #232
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure they had a rough concept and a design outline for the game well before they even started the kickstarter. Pen and paper are very cheap and that's where every game starts.
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  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by icupnimpn2 View Post
    To digress

    How do you have a game that's mostly unplanned and then say, at $800K we'll add another area. At $1MM we'll add another character. These statements make little sense if the number of areas for the game is not yet set or announced and the character roster is not completely baked. Are they adding 1 area to 7 or 1 area to 3... I don't even know. Might as well add N to X. Weak, weak stretch goals for these reasons.

    Sorry if anyone else has brought this up and it has been discussed to death. Couldn't bring myself to read the whole thread.
    They've done NWN 2 and its two expansions which are very similar to this game, plus New Vegas and Kotor 2, which probably had similar writing processes. There's rumors (earlier in the thread) that they're already working on Unity tech with InXile. It's not a great stretch of imagination to believe that they have a fairly accurate picture of the amount of time required to create content. The fact that they took a day or two to announce stretch goals leads me to believe that they ran some numbers before handing out stretch goals.

    They said in the kickstarter that the base game includes three races, five classes, and five companions. That's now expanded to five races, seven classes, and seven companions. The one thing they don't define is how many factions there are, which makes it less effective, but factions are normally pretty significant.

    This quote from an interview with their CEO should also be illuminating:
    But there's a certain point at which there are just too many and they're not impactful anymore. So we're not going to continue to just add another race every X hundred thousand [dollars]. There's not going to be 17 races in the game; we're going to think of other cool things to add in that expand not only what the game is, but potentially what our high level backers are getting. (I find that last part a little worrisome.)

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-pubs-and-devs
    Last edited by Internet; 26-09-2012 at 07:49 AM.

  14. #234
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    Aaaand... 2 million.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    The difference is that the game is automatically placing the items on the floor unless you want to play a sim style house game, and automatic placement frequently results in errors.
    Automatically what? When you place a trap you choose where to place it. Same with dropping items (usually). What's the difference between that and placing things like camp fires that are merely objects anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    I meant to say narrative reactivity, and then removed that because narrative isn't quite right. You lose npcs in the world responding to your actions while maintaining quality writing. That's why everyone makes their own stories in emergent games, because it's very difficult to supply them.
    Oh yes, can't let interesting gameplay get in the way of the beautiful dialogue can we? After all, RPGs are games in which you explore the personalities of pre-written characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by icupnimpn2 View Post
    How do you have a game that's mostly unplanned and then say, at $800K we'll add another area. At $1MM we'll add another character. These statements make little sense if the number of areas for the game is not yet set or announced and the character roster is not completely baked. Are they adding 1 area to 7 or 1 area to 3... I don't even know. Might as well add N to X. Weak, weak stretch goals for these reasons.
    I agree, though Obsidian didn't start this trend. I've seen this on lots of Kickstarters. How much more is an extra area if we don't know how many were planned in the first place? It obfuscates how much extra they are going to put into the game.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Automatically what? When you place a trap you choose where to place it. Same with dropping items (usually). What's the difference between that and placing things like camp fires that are merely objects anyway?


    Oh yes, can't let interesting gameplay get in the way of the beautiful dialogue can we? After all, RPGs are games in which you explore the personalities of pre-written characters.
    What's the difference between placing a campfire or decorations, and playing a game of the sims, which you said you were against earlier? Even if you do manage to place some things, it'd be hard to reach the same level of change that the stronghold in NWN2 did (fixing cracks, putting new rugs and candles in, rearming guards, building new buildings) and it would take much more time. Also you're putting in a system where everything in the game can be picked up and put down, which is a lot of work for not that much payoff. Jeff Vogel does it, and I can't say that it makes his games noticeably better for it.

    Regardless of whether or not you agree with it, that is what they promised to deliver in the pitch:
    You will engage in dialogues that are deep...
    Whether or not it was a right decision (and I think it was because writing is by far their greatest strength), this is now what they have a responsibility to deliver.
    Last edited by Internet; 26-09-2012 at 03:57 PM.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    What's the difference between placing a campfire or decorations, and playing a game of the sims, which you said you were against earlier?
    No. What you mean is "What's the difference between placing traps or dropping items and playing The Sims, which you said you were against earlier?" And if you can't answer that then you've got an extremely limited view of RPGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    Even if you do manage to place some things, it'd be hard to reach the same level of change that the stronghold in NWN2 did (fixing cracks, putting new rugs and candles in, rearming guards, building new buildings) and it would take much more time.
    It's things like building new buildings, fixing cracks and putting in new rugs that is similar to The Sims. Not having the ability to move objects around the game world (perhaps based on your strength).

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    Also you're putting in a system where everything in the game can be picked up and put down, which is a lot of work for not that much payoff. Jeff Vogel does it, and I can't say that it makes his games noticeably better for it.
    If certain items can be picked up anyway it's hardly a massive change. In fact, it's probably just a boolean flag with a few extra data items (inventory icon, weight). You could pick up cutlery, paintings, glasses of milk and other such "pointless" things back in 1990 with Ultima VI, but as you could pick up and put down weapons, armour and other such "important" things in exactly the same way, it wasn't any extra coding.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Oh yes, can't let interesting gameplay get in the way of the beautiful dialogue can we? After all, RPGs are games in which you explore the personalities of pre-written characters.
    Not if that's what they're good at. Were you anyone else I might mockingly say "you may as well complain that there are no RPG elements in Call of Duty" but you probably already have done :)

    But seriously, if Obsidian made an open-word, reactive RPG it probably wouldn't be very good. And even when they kind of try (New Vegas) they don't really do that. You mentioned the original Fallout games and TOEE, but they didn't really have any of those features you like either.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But seriously, if Obsidian made an open-word, reactive RPG it probably wouldn't be very good. And even when they kind of try (New Vegas) they don't really do that. You mentioned the original Fallout games and TOEE, but they didn't really have any of those features you like either.
    Of course they didn't. But the difference is that ToEE was all about combat, and because of that it was turn-based and it let you create your whole party. Fallout was incredibly flawed, with shit combat and little control over party members, but at least it had an interesting character system (even though most of the skills were used in the wrong way), was turn-based, and let you go anywhere you wanted whenever you wanted.

    I'd probably have far less complaints if this game wasn't going to have shit combat, because I can at least appreciate games for getting certain things right.

  20. #240
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Why do I feel like I've seen this debate before?
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