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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    $462,559 - Jesus. Does anyone know at what time today the project was launched?
    19~ish GMT+1

  2. #62
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    The pause and play combat was pretty clunky in BG1, ID1 and PS:T, but they where quite tactically sound, and challenging. And I thought that BG2 and ID2 really polished it to be the best RPG combat system. Temple of Elemental Evil took it to a whole new level, and I actually hope they really cannibalize ToEE's combat system for this game.

    Also the main reason why I think Dragon Age: Origins is still the best BioWare game since KotOR is precisely because it is has a streamlined and polished combat system that is very similar to the one in the old Infinity games. Yes ME might have a more alluring setting, but the combat and the RPG systems in that series are utter poop.

    Now as far as I know this Eternity project is not in the infinity engine, and is not in the D&D rule-set, which means we don't know what the combat will be like until they show it off. We just know it will have a pause function.
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  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    ToEE could be ported to RTwP no problem to be honest. I did like the system A LOT, more than BG and ID, but some designers smarter tham me can pull it off no problem.

    Matter of fact, best combat system would be just Dota or Dawn of War 2 with a space bar to kill twitchiness.

  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokroustis View Post
    GameBanshee has a similar thing.
    I already pledged 20 dollars but I would throw more if RPS did such a thing. After all, our endorsement is worth a lot!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    Also the main reason why I think Dragon Age: Origins is still the best BioWare game since KotOR is precisely because it is has a streamlined and polished combat system that is very similar to the one in the old Infinity games.
    Unfortunately they spoiled all the good work they did in Origins by basing the combat around the aggro mechanic, which makes good sense for multiplayer games but is completely out of place in a single player game. Still, it's comfortably the best RTwP game since Baldur's Gate 2, so I'm not going to complain too much.

    I'm on the fence about RTwP over turn based. On one hand, I tend to prefer turn based RPGs to RTwP RPGs overall. On the other hand, Baldur's Gate 2 is by far my favourite RPG.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    Now as far as I know this Eternity project is not in the infinity engine, and is not in the D&D rule-set, which means we don't know what the combat will be like until they show it off. We just know it will have a pause function.
    Do you really trust these guys to deliverer a good combat system? Let's look at Tim Cain's RPGs. Fallout? Shit combat. Arcanum? Shit combat. The Temple of Elemental Evil? Taken from a tabletop game. Now let's take a look at Chris Avellone's RPGs. Planescape: Torment? Shit combat (and taken from a tabletop game). Knights of the Old Republic II? Shit combat. Alpha Protocol? Shit combat. Josh Sawyer's RPGs? Icewind Dale? Taken from a tabletop game. Neverwinter Nights 2? Taken from a tabletop game. Fallout: New Vegas? Shit combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by pakoito View Post
    ToEE could be ported to RTwP no problem to be honest. I did like the system A LOT, more than BG and ID, but some designers smarter tham me can pull it off no problem.

    Matter of fact, best combat system would be just Dota or Dawn of War 2 with a space bar to kill twitchiness.
    I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Still, it's comfortably the best RTwP game since Baldur's Gate 2, so I'm not going to complain too much.
    No way. Both Icewind Dale II and Neverwinter Nights 2 are heaps better than Dragon Age: Origins.
    Last edited by Wizardry; 14-09-2012 at 11:40 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    No way. Both Icewind Dale II and Neverwinter Nights 2 are heaps better than Dragon Age: Origins.
    They hold up well until about level 7, when 3rd edition D&D self-destructs in video games and the designers of those games didn't do anything to remedy this.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  8. #68
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Do you really trust these guys to deliverer a good combat system? Let's look at Tim Cain's RPGs. Fallout? Shit combat. Arcanum? Shit combat. The Temple of Elemental Evil? Taken from a tabletop game. Now let's take a look at Chris Avellone's RPGs. Planescape: Torment? Shit combat (and taken from a tabletop game). Knights of the Old Republic II? Shit combat. Alpha Protocol? Shit combat. Josh Sawyer's RPGs? Icewind Dale? Taken from a tabletop game. Neverwinter Nights 2? Taken from a tabletop game. Fallout: New Vegas? Shit combat.


    I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
    You have a point, Wizardry. New Vegas is an interesting case, because it seems as if they felt that they had to add complexity and ended up (in my view) slightly damaging the experience. The new ammo types ate one of the (already severely limited) hotkeys without being easy to keep track of and weren't really available in large enough amounts (unless you really hoarded money and/or gambled on the obtuse crafting system) to get try them out. I could never quite understand the armor system, either;wasn't there Damage Resistance and Damage Absorption? What the hell's the difference?

    NWN 2 is probably their best combat (ignoring Dungeon Siege III, which I think we can assume will not be the model for this project), and that was hampered by ungainly tech and the fact that it was generally a clusterfuck at higher levels. It highlighted the problems that this kind of battle system typically has: the pyrotechnics that can liven up turn-based proceedings generally obscure the information the player needs for real-time success, while the complexity of turn-based can easily overwhelm what someone would want to handle in real-time.

    We'll see how this turns out, but hopefully it will at least be ambitious. I'll take a fiasco over a failure any day of the week.

  9. #69
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    I just ignored every new mechanic that New Vegas introduced over Fallout 3, lol.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Casimir Effect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Do you really trust these guys to deliverer a good combat system?
    The thing is that all those Obdisian games with combat systems you call shit were beholden to someone elses one, to a certain extent.

    KOTOR2 had to copy the combat of KOTOR1, it's obviously what the publisher wanted.
    Alpha Protocol tried to follow the Mass Effect.
    New Vegas had to go Fallout 3.
    The thing these all have in common is that they were the games Obsidian made with console in mind.
    NWN2, PC-based, was a good combat system. And even though it was taken from tabletop it technically shared the same ruleset as NWN1 - where the combat was lifeless and dull.

    The only combat system I'm happy with calling Obsidians own is that found in Dungeon Siege 3 which, while not turn-based and so perhaps less relevant for this new project, was a hell of a lot of fun. Pretty damn hard to master and will make going back and playing things like Torhclight or Diablo very hard. So now they've got freedom to do their own thing I'd remain optimistic. Then again you love your gameplay whereas I love my story, so I'm probably more likely to be happy in this instance.

    Combat like a DOTA game would be awful though, we can agree on that. Fuck everything about that genre.

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Cas: At best, you can argue that Obsidian is untested in that regard.

    Honestly, what they described sounds like real-time Arcanum to me.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    NWN2, PC-based, was a good combat system. And even though it was taken from tabletop it technically shared the same ruleset as NWN1 - where the combat was lifeless and dull.
    Well I wouldn't call Neverwinter Night 2's combat good because technically it shares the same ruleset as Temple of Elemental Evil, which has an infinitely better implementation. And this is a perfect example of my point. Then you're forgetting Fallout and Arcanum which Tim Cain designed. Arcanum has one of the worst combat systems in any CRPG ever, while Fallout was a pitiful GURPS rip off after they lost the licence, turning what would have been a nice, balanced and detailed system into one of the most broken turn-based systems around where piling on critical hit chance and aiming for the eyes is the only tactic that matters.

    Okay, so these games have shit combat, but the only way to test if these developers are really incompetent is to look at the track records of other people. And this is where it really becomes obvious, because only Richard Garriott with his Ultima series can rival this long a streak of terrible combat systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    Combat like a DOTA game would be awful though, we can agree on that. Fuck everything about that genre.
    Oh for sure. *shudders at the thought of it*

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    Combat like a DOTA game would be awful though, we can agree on that. Fuck everything about that genre.
    I think the trees are stopping you from seeing the forest. Combat-wise they are the slickest, best ARPGs you can find, you just have to bend the mind instead of trying to bend the spoon.

    Remember the last time you casted a vectorial skill, or simple non-pb AoE skill in a non-tiled game. Guild Wars 2. DA:O. KotC. 5 year gap. ToEE.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Honestly, what they described sounds like real-time Arcanum to me.
    At least Arcanum had the option to enable a turn-based combat with action points and whatnot. I had to use it cuz the real time combat was a royal pain in the ass for that one, unlike BG, ID and P:T where it was still a pain and didn't offer any options in that regard, but was still more manageable, dunno why.

  15. #75
    Lesser Hivemind Node fiddlesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    osh Sawyer's RPGs? Icewind Dale? Taken from a tabletop game. Neverwinter Nights 2? Taken from a tabletop game. Fallout: New Vegas? Shit combat.
    For what it's worth, I really liked Sawyer's tabletop version of Fallout. It fixes many of the problems the video games suffered from.

    As for the Kickstarter, I'm not really all that thrilled about yet another classic fantasy game and I would have preferred turn-based combat to real time with pause, but I'll most likely still donate because I love Obsidian. Not that they seem to need it, considering they already passed the $600'000 mark.

  16. #76
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    I donated to the kickstarter without any expectation of enjoying the combat. It would be an RPG second* if I did, and as excited as I am for this game, I don't think that's a reasonable thing to hope for.


    *I liked the combat from Shining Force 2.

  17. #77
    Hey wizardry, what's the best old-school RPG to get started on?

  18. #78
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    I'm flabbergasted they manage to gather money so fast, compared to Wasteland 2. Obsidian seems to me a second rate developer (not third rate). They make okay games, but not great ones. Alpha Protocol ? Some like it a lot, but it's certainly flawed and controversial. Icewind Dale ? A "You may also want to check" kind of game, I can't imagine anyone recommending it before Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment. Neverwinter Nights 2 ? A sequel that never got as popular as the first game, which had legendary modding scene. And so on. And their games have a reputation for being buggy.

    I don't know, maybe they will make a very good game in absence of a controlling publisher. They deserve a chance. But I'm not going to support them, which is easy because they don't mention Linux :-).

    At least Kickstarter is seducing well known game developers. Big publishers may not be scared yet, but Kickstarter is snowballing and we don't know when it stops. It literally grows exponentially year by year.
    Last edited by b0rsuk; 15-09-2012 at 07:45 AM.
    pass

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Do you really trust these guys to deliverer a good combat system?
    It's a fair point, which is why it's a good job it's not turned-based, as with RtWP you can at least stick it on easy and get through it quickly if they screw it up.

  20. #80
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    Perhaps a stretch goal could be "hire some people who can make a good cRPG system". It seems like they're going to get fifteen billion dollars, after all. The dangerous possibility is they think that their previous efforts were good cRPG systems...
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

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