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  1. #41
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    Really? I'd like to know RPS comment on how they "can be bought anytime". I currently run a business. Can it be bought any time? What is the legality of someone else buying my business when I'm not selling anytime?

    So the phrase "can be bought anytime" makes as much sense as saying "the Queens Crown Jewels can be bought any time" or "The Houses or parliament/Sidney Opera House can be bought any time". IE it needs to be for sale first.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Really? I'd like to know RPS comment on how they "can be bought anytime". I currently run a business. Can it be bought any time? What is the legality of someone else buying my business when I'm not selling anytime?
    because you can be selling anytime. RPS can be bought anytime because they can sell it anytime.
    So the phrase "can be bought anytime" makes as much sense as saying "the Queens Crown Jewels can be bought any time" or "The Houses or parliament/Sidney Opera House can be bought any time". IE it needs to be for sale first.
    companies are always available for sale. that's what you don't get. valve, rps is always available for sale because anytime anyone can come to the owner and say they want to purchase it.

    it is unlikely that valve is going to be sold because gabe really has no incentive to sale it for many reasons. it is not like a company is behind the counter and simply not available.
    if somebody came and offered RPS owners, 500 million American dollars, do you think they would not sale? if someobody offered gabe 50 billion dollars would he not sale it?

    so yes. valve is available for sale. is it likely? no. very unlikely at this moment based on what we know.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by frightlever View Post
    When Gamestop acquired Impulse I pretty much walked away from the service and the 30-40 games I had on there. Would be harder to do with my 5-600 games if Valve sold out - which is, let's be honest, entirely possible within the next 5-10 years, but less likely in the near future.

    If you don't mind me asking -- Why?

    Gamestop hasn't wrecked it imo. The client system looks pretty nice now. They offer you rewards for buying games and they offer pretty decent deals. I got Darksiders 2 from them a week ago for $30. Steam hasn't even had it that cheap yet. Best of all, just abut all their games activate on Steam.

    Sorry I'm not taking part in this "takeover/buyout" thing. Was just curious towards that.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    I can't speak for fright, but I avoid Gamestop on principle.

    First: They are hurting the industry and are basically the reason behind all the DRM designed to combat used game sales and artificial DLC (stuff that was already done, but is sold separately anyway). Gamestop's business model is to buy-back a new game for 15 dollars then sell the used copy for 50 (10 dollars cheaper!). That REALLY affects the sales figures for console games (and profits) and is basically why we have Day 1 DLC (it kills resale value).
    The best part is that the only thing really "known" about the next generation of consoles is that they will probably have integrated DRM mechanisms to combat resale. So the CEO of Gamestop is repeatedly going on record about how used game sales are good for the industry somehow.
    Gamestop also basically killed the PSP Go (Sony's attempt at shifting the market to digital distribution by making a PSP that didn't have a disc drive) by refusing to stock it and have made similar threats any time a publisher wants to go pure digital on a title.
    That's right, Gamestop is why we are still paying out the ass on all our games. Because retail has costs that digital doesn't, but distributors get pissed when there is a price discrepancy (why buy retail if Digital is 50% cheaper?) and gamers get pissed when different platforms have different prices.

    Second, every Gamestop I have ever gone to is full of assholes. Whether that is teenagers screaming profanities into cell phones while standing in line (a good store tells them to get the hell out. Children don't need to hear how this "african american female dog performed fellatio on you" or this gem of an exchange I had a few years back (before DD took off)
    Me: "Hey, do you guys have any copies of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2 in stock? It released today, but I don't see any on shelves. Do you have any in the back?"
    Counter Guy: "Fuck that shit. Why would you want a faggy game like that? Get Halo instead"
    And crap like that was not localized to a single store (that one just sticks in my mind). At least, at the time, Gamestop wanted to "appeal" to gamers by hiring "gamers".


    Third, they killed Electronics Boutique/EB. I remember growing up. Gamestop was where you went to get console games. EB actually had more than one shelf of PC games (and said shelf wasn't just Starcraft and Warcraft...). EB and Gamestop merged (not sure who bought who, or if they were always the same company) and EB stores became Gamestop until they just stopped existing.

    Fourth. Last November I decided to buy a tablet (ASUS Transformer Prime). After spending most of December calling around to see who had it in stock to pre-order, Gamestop revealed that they could "guarantee" me to receive one on a specific date in early January because they were getting a special shipment and nobody else (not even Amazon) would be getting one until February 1st. Excited (and a bit stupid...) I drove down to place my pre-order. But I was still smart enough to not cancel my Amazon pre-order (that honestly said "Beginning of February" because Amazon gives an upper bound and narrows down). I figured, Amazon has a good returns policy if Gamestop screws up, and I would rather buy from Amazon anyway. And a few weeks later they even updated to something along the lines of "January 20th" while Gamestop was still at January 10th or something.
    On January 9th, I called the Gamestop to confirm they were available and still got "Yes, we guaranteed it to you. It will be there"
    On January 10th I called before heading over (it was a busy day, but I wanted my toy) and was told they weren't in stock but would be there late next week (hmmm....). I was a bit pissed because the only reason I even placed a pre-order was because they guaranteed it. And every time I asked a question, they hung up on me.
    After being treated like garbage (including the people on the phone using fake voices to pretend they were the manager), I finally got a hold of the manager. Said Manager basically said "Oh, the person you talked to was a seasonal employee and she is no longer here" (she was the one who handed the phone to the manager, finally... That is why you take notes on who you talk to. After pressing the Manager on how "guarantee" actually means something, he (after "losing connection" a few times) said she was misinformed. When I asked her who misinformed her, he said the person who was managing her at the time. When I finally snapped and demanded a refund (and was told that I would have to get the refund in person...), he gave the gem of "I've been managing this store for 3 years and I have never had a problem with it", at which point I burst into laughter.
    Needless to say, I filed one hell of a complaint with the Better Businesses Bureau after that one and I refuse to ever go back to a Gamestop. I even stopped using Kongregate to goof off with.
    Note: The specific dates may be wrong, but the relationships are right (so their actual arrival date was the same as Amazon's).

    But I do have to think Gamestop for one thing. They are basically why almost every publisher finds that they make more PC sales on digital platforms than anywhere else, which really led to the rise of Steam. So jokes on them, we win anyway.
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  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I can't speak for fright, but I avoid Gamestop on principle.

    First: They are hurting the industry and are basically the reason behind all the DRM designed to combat used game sales and artificial DLC (stuff that was already done, but is sold separately anyway). Gamestop's business model is to buy-back a new game for 15 dollars then sell the used copy for 50 (10 dollars cheaper!). That REALLY affects the sales figures for console games (and profits) and is basically why we have Day 1 DLC (it kills resale value).
    Why should I as a consumer give a shit as to how the secondary market hurts the profits of publishers? The secondary market is how a lot of gamers kept their gaming budgets within reasonable means.
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  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Why should I as a consumer give a shit as to how the secondary market hurts the profits of publishers? The secondary market is how a lot of gamers kept their gaming budgets within reasonable means.
    Well, for one thing, it has led to the Day 1 DLC and many of the DRM models that people, as consumers, have been bitching about. Everyone is so quick to say DRM doesn't stop piracy and Day 1 DLC is a scam. Well, this is what they have a large impact on.

    Second, Gamestop really isn't all that reasonable in the first place. Excluding special sales (and even then...), the price they are asking is still crap. It reminds me of back when I had to buy books for class in college. I could save maybe 10 or 20 bucks (on one of the expensive books. Much less of a price difference on the cheaper ones) in exchange for something that had probably been used to wipe someone's ass.

    Of course, I quickly found out: I can pay the "used' price and get a brand new book from Amazon. Which actually mirrors gaming pretty well. You can rely on getting price gouged for used stuff (which profits the retailer MASSIVELY), or you can shop around and find a good deal. And that "shopping around" generally just means checking Amazon's deal of the day every so often.

    Although, its worth noting that Gamefly does a rental service and are actually a really good deal if you play a lot of new (console) games.
    Last edited by gundato; 13-09-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Again Lukaz, I said "make the number as big as you like" say your "500 million dollars". Gabe is not selling. He said "I am never selling, I will close down Valve if need be, but I will not sell it". See the difference? Steam can be sold, it's the store, but the production company called "Valve" is Gabe.

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    GabeN has been sitting atop of the Maslow Pyramid since the mid 00s. No need to sell for him. He has his toy company with his toy employees creating his dreamgames (Dota buyout for remaking? totally GabeN) without the need of external budget. The engine to his dream-fulfilling company is the most important software piece of PC Gaming history, which literally prints money while providing a good service and turning tables against piracy while enhancing user experience.
    Last edited by pakoito; 13-09-2012 at 06:02 PM.

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Again Lukaz, I said "make the number as big as you like" say your "500 million dollars". Gabe is not selling. He said "I am never selling, I will close down Valve if need be, but I will not sell it". See the difference? Steam can be sold, it's the store, but the production company called "Valve" is Gabe.
    Steam is a Valve creation. Valve can (and won't) sell Steam.
    Valve is owned by Gaben. Gaben can (and won't) sell Valve.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Well, for one thing, it has led to the Day 1 DLC and many of the DRM models that people, as consumers, have been bitching about. Everyone is so quick to say DRM doesn't stop piracy and Day 1 DLC is a scam. Well, this is what they have a large impact on.
    Piracy is my consumer rights agency.

    Also, why are you blaming the brick & mortars - who made their rent by the secondary market - for the decisions of publishers? They're not our friends - neither of them. And their infighting over control of our dollar is a concern of theirs, not ours.
    Last edited by Nalano; 13-09-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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  10. #50
    Lesser Hivemind Node lasikbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Again Lukaz, I said "make the number as big as you like" say your "500 million dollars". Gabe is not selling. He said "I am never selling, I will close down Valve if need be, but I will not sell it". See the difference? Steam can be sold, it's the store, but the production company called "Valve" is Gabe.
    Pretty sure he means "If I was in a situation where to keep the company alive I would have to sell it I would not sell it and the company would close down." EA has the ability to offer him money for his company, but that's it.

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Piracy is my consumer rights agency.

    Also, why are you blaming the brick & mortars - who made their rent by the secondary market - for the decisions of publishers? They're not our friends - neither of them. And their infighting over control of our dollar is a concern of theirs, not ours.
    Gonna ignore the completely random first sentence. I guess you just aren't yet tired of all the piracy debates

    And I blame Gamestop because they made their entire business out of screwing over the customer AND the publisher. And because their actions, at the very least, give publishers an excuse to do some stuff that has had quite a few bad consequences.

    Yes, we get it, you hate companies and you think everyone hates gamers and blah blah blah. Fact of the matter is: How do you fight used game sales? You add DLC (free or otherwise) and you make them MP focused. The former I am neutral toward, the latter I don't like.

    Now, I know you are going to say "Har har, you just said you hate Gamestop but still called me out on hating companies in general". And that's true.

    http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/games/te...nament-2/98618
    That game came out this month. Gamestop will apparently give you a 30 dollar trade-in credit (not sure if that is a special online thing or not). They'll sell a used copy for 48 bucks online (55 in stores, it looks like).
    So you save 12 dollars if you buy it used: Maybe that is a decent deal, but it is pretty much the same you can get for a new title if you can wait a few weeks for a sale (honestly, sales seem to go a LOT lower these days, but whatever). And then you consider: "What is the day one DLC worth?" and you usually get between 5 and 10 dollars. And if it is Arkham City, that Day 1 DLC is a pretty big part of the game...
    So you are saving 5-7 dollars on MSRP by buying used. And Gamestop is making a crapton of profit on each sale (because who knows how little they'll give you if you sell them back a used game. Probably a lot less than 30).
    But the people who MADE that game. The people who will decide to make a new game based upon sales, only see one sale, regardless of how many times that game changes hands.

    That is QUITE different than "We want to encourage gamers to buy our games new. Let's give them free pre-order incentives (regardless of when said pre-order incentive was complete).

    But you are right, this doesn't affect us as PC gamers. Because Gamestop stopped giving a crap about us LONG ago because they can't gouge us. Why? Because almost every game these days has activation model DRM that makes re-selling difficult, at best. But there couldn't possibly be a correlation between the two, could there?
    What's that? Sony and MS were considering blocking used games from the consoles? Wow. No idea why.

    So it isn't "siding with the evil corporation who only wants to hurt you and is the enemy" as you like to go on about. It is about realizing there is someone whose actions are provably (admittedly, only through trends and empirical data) hurting the industry, and that the industry still makes the shinies we want.

    As for Gamefly: I am not huge on them from a customer service standpoint, and they screw publishers in much the same way that Gamestop does, but at least they don't screw the consumer. Gamefly is a very good service if you play a lot of different video games and they have very good rates. So while they might not be great for the industry, they at least overcome that by being a good thing for consumers.
    Last edited by gundato; 13-09-2012 at 06:36 PM.
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  12. #52
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And I blame Gamestop because they made their entire business out of screwing over the customer AND the publisher.
    Dont't know about you, but I've found a lot of good deals from Gamestop.

    Fact of the matter is: How do you fight used game sales?


    Why do you need to fight used sales? Books, albums and movies don't do that, but apparently gaming industry is so fragile that people lending and reselling their games hurts it very very badly.

  13. #53
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    But the people who MADE that game. The people who will decide to make a new game based upon sales, only see one sale, regardless of how many times that game changes hands
    Tough shit! They've had their money, why should they get more?
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  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    I've no love for Gamestop but now that they've acquired Impulse I have a use for those gift cards clueless relatives send me during the holidays.
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  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira- View Post
    Why do you need to fight used sales? Books, albums and movies don't do that, but apparently gaming industry is so fragile that people lending and reselling their games hurts it very very badly.[/COLOR]
    Used books are generally restricted to older titles that were out of print, not so much the hardcovers they initially release in. People who buy hardcovers tend to be book lovers who want a pristine copy or people who really want to read the story NOW. That being said: I read on the pooper, and I assume other people do too. I don't want to touch a used book :p

    Music and Movies make most of their money (that they "care about") in concerts and theatres.

    Games rely on those sales for revenue. And even if we assume they don't "need" the money (let's say enough people buy it new), that is still a HUGE chunk of cash they are missing out on. If you are a manufacturer of something and you see sales statistics suggesting that a third party may be making profits comparable to your own on stuff you made, that raises some red flags.

    And that is not even getting into the "isolated cases" of Gamestop managers selling used games as new (because they separate the box and the disc anyway, so it is really hard to tell).
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Fact of the matter is: How do you fight used game sales?
    You make games cheap enough that there is no demand for a second-hand market (see: books, music, DVDs). If that means making shorter games, then fine.

    Or, you don't make the margins on new games so small that it's literally impossible for a town-centre shop to make money selling them. Gamestop didn't always do used games, but as the margins on new titles were squeezed and squeezed by the publishers until used games became the only way to make profit.

    I won't deny that that they take the piss with the massive difference in sale and purchase price, but it's interesting to note that Gamestop in the US is pretty much an anomaly in that they're filthy rice. GAME do the exactly the same thing in Europe and dying a slow, protracted death.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    You make games cheap enough that there is no demand for a second-hand market (see: books, music, DVDs). If that means making shorter games, then fine.

    Or, you don't make the margins on new games so small that it's literally impossible for a town-centre shop to make money selling them. Gamestop didn't always do used games, but as the margins on new titles were squeezed and squeezed by the publishers until used games became the only way to make profit.

    I won't deny that that they take the piss with the massive difference in sale and purchase price, but it's interesting to note that Gamestop in the US is pretty much an anomaly in that they're filthy rice. GAME do the exactly the same thing in Europe and dying a slow, protracted death.
    They would lose more money doing that then they would save through eliminating used game sales....

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    but it's interesting to note that Gamestop in the US is pretty much an anomaly in that they're filthy rice.
    Wait. What?
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  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    They would lose more money doing that then they would save through eliminating used game sales....
    Yeah, I am not saying the publishers are innocent, far from it. But Gamestop is definitely a large part of why we are at this point. They saw a way to increase profits (good for them) and they exploited the living hell out of it AND gamers.

    And I still think that their refusal to stock the PSP Go (at least at first, I am not sure if they changed their mind) is one reason why prices are so high. Yes, licensing fees are higher on consoles (well, they EXIST on consoles) so you are always going to have that price that publishers won't get rid of so as to not make people "second class gamers". But you can get rid of a LOT of those distribution expenses if you switch to a primarily digital model. The problem is making the transition.

    But fortunately, Gamestop are now selling DLC in the sense that you drive to the store, buy it from them, enter it on their website, and they download it to your XBOX. I am NOT making this up... But hopefully this sheer and utter stupidity will convince people they don't even NEED to go to Gamestop to buy that serial number.

    And when your primary source of revenue has "zero cost" (not zero, but you know what I mean), you can even afford to take a hit on alternate ones (brick and mortar) if it means building a userbase. Case in point: Look at Amazon and the Kindles.
    So the shift to digital results in cheaper games. Look at how many quality PC titles have launched at the 30 dollar mark in the past few years.


    And for the record: Excluding used titles (which are of questionable value once you factor in stuff like Day 1 DLC and the like), I actually get most of my console games through either Amazon sales or hitting up Toys R Us or Target during their sales. I can only think of two or three times that I didn't see a good Gamestop deal mirrored (or better) at one of those three within a few weeks (if not within a few hours). If I were a true denizen of CAG (which means I buy all the copies so I can sell later because that is what everyone on those boards seems to do...) I would care. But I am only getting games for myself and occasional gifts, so I can afford to say "I would rather pay a few more bucks to use Target or Amazon" or "I can wait a few weeks for a better deal".

    Its the same logic by which some people say "I am only going to deal with these N digital distribution sites. I don't want to have forty different accounts" and they really don't pay much more so long as at least one of those is Steam :p
    Last edited by gundato; 13-09-2012 at 11:08 PM.
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  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Yeah, I am not saying the publishers are innocent, far from it. But Gamestop is definitely a large part of why we are at this point. They saw a way to increase profits (good for them) and they exploited the living hell out of it AND gamers.

    And I still think that their refusal to stock the PSP Go (at least at first, I am not sure if they changed their mind) is one reason why prices are so high. Yes, licensing fees are higher on consoles (well, they EXIST on consoles) so you are always going to have that price that publishers won't get rid of so as to not make people "second class gamers". But you can get rid of a LOT of those distribution expenses if you switch to a primarily digital model. The problem is making the transition.

    But fortunately, Gamestop are now selling DLC in the sense that you drive to the store, buy it from them, enter it on their website, and they download it to your XBOX. I am NOT making this up... But hopefully this sheer and utter stupidity will convince people they don't even NEED to go to Gamestop to buy that serial number.

    And when your primary source of revenue has "zero cost" (not zero, but you know what I mean), you can even afford to take a hit on alternate ones (brick and mortar) if it means building a userbase. Case in point: Look at Amazon and the Kindles.
    So the shift to digital results in cheaper games. Look at how many quality PC titles have launched at the 30 dollar mark in the past few years.


    And for the record: Excluding used titles (which are of questionable value once you factor in stuff like Day 1 DLC and the like), I actually get most of my console games through either Amazon sales or hitting up Toys R Us or Target during their sales. I can only think of two or three times that I didn't see a good Gamestop deal mirrored (or better) at one of those three within a few weeks (if not within a few hours). If I were a true denizen of CAG (which means I buy all the copies so I can sell later because that is what everyone on those boards seems to do...) I would care. But I am only getting games for myself and occasional gifts, so I can afford to say "I would rather pay a few more bucks to use Target or Amazon" or "I can wait a few weeks for a better deal".

    Its the same logic by which some people say "I am only going to deal with these N digital distribution sites. I don't want to have forty different accounts" and they really don't pay much more so long as at least one of those is Steam :p
    Gamestop didn't invent the second hand market...

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