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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Gamestop didn't invent the second hand market...
    Look: If it wasn't for those evil developers, there wouldn't be software piracy. HOW DARE THEY MAKE GAMES.
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  2. #62
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Look: If it wasn't for those evil developers, there wouldn't be software piracy. HOW DARE THEY MAKE GAMES.
    I know right, and damn those people who sell their houses! They are evil and taking money from hard working home builders/developers!

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Gamestop didn't invent the second hand market...
    But they pretty much base their entire model on it and are the "gold standard" by which all other used game programs are seen (in the US, at least).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I know right, and damn those people who sell their houses! They are evil and taking money from hard working home builders/developers!
    Which, much like the previously mentioned books example, is nothing like this. The cost of building the house is made back when the house is built (hardcover sales). So all future sales are a different mess entirely.

    But please, feel free to keep setting up straw men to knock down.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I know right, and damn those people who sell their houses! They are evil and taking money from hard working home builders/developers!
    When you sell your house the real estate agent doesn't take 80 percent of the cut...

    I think lending games or private selling is great, helps spread the word on games (it's how me and my friends discovered a lot of good games over the years) and the seller gets some of his money back to spend on whatever.

    But gamestop (ANY random games shop e.g Game Mania here in belgium is just as bad) basically syphon huge amounts of money out of the gaming market.
    Offering people 5-15 bucks for a second hand game, selling it on for double or triple, and whatfor?

    They feed off both gamers and the industry and contribute absolutely nothing to it.


    People only have so much money to spend on games, and many are giving a large amount of it to gamestop or other stores who contribute nothing to the quality of videogames, and gamestop is not going to go out and buy new games with their moneys to play at home with timmy from next doors.
    It's wasted money.

    If they took an approriate amount for the service rendered (glorified flea market + having some puberescent dropout get his germs on the manual and box) then it would be a different story, but they don't.

    It's far worse than piracy.
    If I pirate 10 games and buy one DD game then I spent 40-50 euros on the creation and distribution of video games.
    If I don't pirate but spend my 40-50 euros on buying 2-3 second hand games from gamestop or game mania then I spent 0 euros on the creation and distribution of video games.

    The optimistic argument that the person who sold his games will spend the money gotten from the buyer on new games doesn't work in this case, because most of the money he got for his game (from the buyer) has gone to gamestop.
    Gamestop is not going to donate their money to kickstarter or some publisher or developer.

    Not like it matters, people always balk at these facts and stick their fingers in their ears going LALALALALALA (usually in the form of ad hominem arguments, derailing or changing the subject).

    Let me reiterate because it's exactly what'll happen.
    Gamestop and co syphon bucketloads of money out of the gaming market through the second hand market.

    For all you consumerist , advertising loving corporate apologists, you are the placenta of the precious fetus that is the gaming industry, and the second hand market in the form of gamestop is a parasite latching on to the umbellical cord sucking out most of the nutrients that pass through.
    Your poor baby is suffering but you turn the other way because of a combination of mixed interests and cognitive dissonance allows you to conveniently retain the moral highground and shift the blame.
    Last edited by Finicky; 14-09-2012 at 12:34 AM.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    But they pretty much base their entire model on it and are the "gold standard" by which all other used game programs are seen (in the US, at least).


    Which, much like the previously mentioned books example, is nothing like this. The cost of building the house is made back when the house is built (hardcover sales). So all future sales are a different mess entirely.

    But please, feel free to keep setting up straw men to knock down.
    The cost of making a game is covered by selling the game new too. Unless you think every single game publisher just releases games at a loss all the time and is somehow still in business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    When you sell your house the real estate agent doesn't take 80 percent of the cut...

    I think lending games or private selling is great, helps spread the word on games (it's how me and my friends discovered a lot of good games over the years) and the seller gets some of his money back to spend on whatever.

    But gamestop (ANY random games shop e.g Game Mania here in belgium is just as bad) basically syphon huge amounts of money out of the gaming market.
    Offering people 5-15 bucks for a second hand game, selling it on for double or triple, and whatfor?

    They feed off both gamers and the industry and contribute absolutely nothing to it.


    People only have so much money to spend on games, and many are giving a large amount of it to gamestop or other stores who contribute nothing to the quality of videogames.
    Wasted money.

    If they took an approriate amount for the service rendered (glorified flea market + having some puberescent dropout get his germs on the manual and box) then it would be a different story, but they don't.

    It's far worse than piracy.
    If I pirate 10 games and buy one DD game then I spent 40-50 euros on the creation and distribution of video games.
    If I don't pirate but spend my 40-50 euros on buying 2-3 second hand games from gamestop or game mania then I spent 0 euros on the creation and distribution of video games.

    The optimistic argument that the person who sold his games will spend the money gotten from the buyer on new games doesn't work in this case, because most of the money he got for his game (from the buyer) has gone to gamestop.
    Gamestop is not going to donate their money to kickstarter or some publisher or developer.

    Not like it matters, people always balk at these facts and stick their fingers in their ears going LALALALALALA (usually in the form of ad hominem arguments, derailing or changing the subject).
    So if I sell a used xbox game on ebay for $35 it's ok, but if gamestop does it they are evil because they contribute nothing to the industry.

    P.S. Gamestop does sell new games in addition to used games, pretty crazy I know. Maybe we should focus our efforts on pawn shops instead.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post

    So if I sell a used xbox game on ebay for $35 it's ok, but if gamestop does it they are evil because they contribute nothing to the industry.
    Exactly... (here comes the cognitive dissonance bit from you...)

    Wether or not it's okay is a matter of opinion and is irrelevant to the argument that gamestop is syphoning a large share of money out of the pockets of the market that game developers target and rely upon.
    They are by definition a parasite that is taking marketshare from the industry without contributing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    P.S. Gamestop does sell new games in addition to used games, pretty crazy I know. Maybe we should focus our efforts on pawn shops instead.
    Why bring this up? This has nothing to do with anything at all. They distribute games for publishers yes, and?

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    Last edited by Finicky; 14-09-2012 at 12:47 AM.

  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Trading games fuels day/week 1 sales.

  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    The cost of making a game is covered by selling the game new too. Unless you think every single game publisher just releases games at a loss all the time and is somehow still in business.
    No, but let's just do a bit of math here.

    Game A is sold 4 times for X dollars.

    If sold new, the publisher of Game A makes 4X dollars (yes, the store gets a cut, but it doesn't matter)
    If all 4 copies of Game A were the same copy, just bought and resold repeatedly by a store, then the publisher makes X dollars.

    Assuming that the publisher is not paying us to play the game, then 4X > X.



    So if I sell a used xbox game on ebay for $35 it's ok, but if gamestop does it they are evil because they contribute nothing to the industry.

    P.S. Gamestop does sell new games in addition to used games, pretty crazy I know. Maybe we should focus our efforts on pawn shops instead.
    Actually, yes. It is perfectly okay. Because you aren't doing it on a huge scale. Now, if you made a business out of buying games on eBay for cheap and selling them for 3 times the price you bought them, I would think you are a dick. But you probably still wouldn't be doing it on a huge scale.

    And yes, Gamestop sells new games too. But they make their huge profits on the whole "Screwing customers and the publishers". Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that.

    And here is the beautiful thing that you may not understand: I am not saying other people shouldn't buy from Gamestop. I would prefer it if they didn't, but they are really just screwing themselves over more than anything else. I know, it is a crazy thought. Someone expressing an opinion without thinking anyone with a differing opinion is stupid and an enemy of gaming? Preposterous!

    But somebody asked why somebody was turned off of Impulse after it got bought by Gamestop, and I explained why a LOT of gamers dislike Gamestop. And it mostly boils down to them screwing over the publisher AND the customer, rather than just picking one like a normal seller.
    Last edited by gundato; 14-09-2012 at 01:12 AM.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Decline sure, but they're still making shitloads. Over here in the UK GAME closed half their stores as they literally couldn't pay the rent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    They would lose more money doing that then they would save through eliminating used game sales....
    Maybe. Maybe they'd sell more at a lower price.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    They feed off both gamers and the industry and contribute absolutely nothing to it.
    Y'know, except for providing a high street presence for videogames. Again, this is one of those debates when most people in forums like this keep the blinkers on. We are not normal.

    See, if second-hand sales were eliminated, game shops would not be a viable business. The margins on new games are just too small. They would close down. You might not mind that, I might not mind that, but the publishers are scared shitless of that happening because they need a high street presence for games, they need to stick them in people's faces, because that's how they sell most of their games. And if that option isn't available to people, they're not suddenly going to go digital. They'll spend the money on gin or whores instead. Because they're not 'gamers', they are just people what play games and they are the main audience. The value of having actual stores out there on the high street to the industry is huge.

    Gamestop is not going to donate their money to kickstarter or some publisher or developer.
    I can't speak for the US, but in the UK the most common trade-in tends to be old for new. It's kids trading in the game of last month so they can get the game of this month (that came out two days ago, and so doesn't have second-hand copies available yet) for half price.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    No, but let's just do a bit of math here.

    Game A is sold 4 times for X dollars.

    If sold new, the publisher of Game A makes 4X dollars (yes, the store gets a cut, but it doesn't matter)
    If all 4 copies of Game A were the same copy, just bought and resold repeatedly by a store, then the publisher makes X dollars.

    Assuming that the publisher is not paying us to play the game, then 4X > X.
    That's the 'every pirated copy is a lost sale' argument.

    Where does that 4X dollars come from? I don't suddenly have 4x as much money to spend on games if we stop secondhand sales. What you're not accounting for is the fact that when someone trades in a game, they generally get store credit, which they spend on games. Sometimes new, sometimes second-hand.

    Unlike piracy though, we can put an exact figure on it: the lost revenue for the game publishers is equal to Gamestop's profits on secondhand sales. The cut, the bit you say doesn't matter, is the only thing that does matter. As the best possible scenario here is that the income that did belong to Gamestop gets moved to the publisher instead.

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Exactly... (here comes the cognitive dissonance bit from you...)

    Wether or not it's okay is a matter of opinion and is irrelevant to the argument that gamestop is syphoning a large share of money out of the pockets of the market that game developers target and rely upon.
    They are by definition a parasite that is taking marketshare from the industry without contributing.


    Why bring this up? This has nothing to do with anything at all. They distribute games for publishers yes, and?

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  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    That's the 'every pirated copy is a lost sale' argument.

    Where does that 4X dollars come from? I don't suddenly have 4x as much money to spend on games if we stop secondhand sales. What you're not accounting for is the fact that when someone trades in a game, they generally get store credit, which they spend on games. Sometimes new, sometimes second-hand.

    Unlike piracy though, we can put an exact figure on it: the lost revenue for the game publishers is equal to Gamestop's profits on secondhand sales. The cut, the bit you say doesn't matter, is the only thing that does matter. As the best possible scenario here is that the income that did belong to Gamestop gets moved to the publisher instead.
    Well, not really. My point is just why secondhand sales are bad. If someone purchases a used game, the publisher does not see a single penny from that transaction.

    If you want to make the example REALLY complicated, add a k that corresponds to the percentage of mark-up so that stores make a profit as well as the probability of a purchase.
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  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Well, not really. My point is just why secondhand sales are bad. If someone purchases a used game, the publisher does not see a single penny from that transaction.

    If you want to make the example REALLY complicated, add a k that corresponds to the percentage of mark-up so that stores make a profit as well as the probability of a purchase.
    The money ends up going to publishers at some point in the system through store credit.

    The real question is, who cares? Why does it matter that publishers don't get money from used sales?

    The only evidence you can show for them being bad is that it doesn't maximize publisher profits. So if you are a game publisher, sure used sales are bad. If you are a consumer they are great.

    =/

    Back to the beginning.

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Used books are generally restricted to older titles that were out of print, not so much the hardcovers they initially release in. People who buy hardcovers tend to be book lovers who want a pristine copy or people who really want to read the story NOW. That being said: I read on the pooper, and I assume other people do too. I don't want to touch a used book :p
    My book - my sale - my money. STAY THE FUCK AWAY. This extends to all other items. Games are the same. I don't care what they think they can get away with thanks to DRM, always-online stuff or day1 DLC. I stay away from such games because for me, it's deception. GOG, Humble Indie Bundle, Kickstarter, Desura, various assorted indie games with their own digital distribution channels. The world doesn't end with STEAM.

    Well, not really. My point is just why secondhand sales are bad. If someone purchases a used game, the publisher does not see a single penny from that transaction.
    And why should he ? In this case, what service does he provide to person A and person B ?

    Unlike piracy though, we can put an exact figure on it: the lost revenue for the game publishers is equal to Gamestop's profits on secondhand sales. The cut, the bit you say doesn't matter, is the only thing that does matter. As the best possible scenario here is that the income that did belong to Gamestop gets moved to the publisher instead.
    It's not "lost revenue" it's "revenue not gained". By the same logic you should go after movie and game critics, because they lower the profits of game/movie makers.
    Last edited by b0rsuk; 14-09-2012 at 02:18 AM.
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  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    The money ends up going to publishers at some point in the system through store credit.

    The real question is, who cares? Why does it matter that publishers don't get money from used sales?

    The only evidence you can show for them being bad is that it doesn't maximize publisher profits. So if you are a game publisher, sure used sales are bad. If you are a consumer they are great.

    =/

    Back to the beginning.
    Pretty much. Because this was the entire rationale behind why I don't like Gamestop in the first place. Ah well, maybe if you think you steered the conversation here you'll listen.


    If a publisher thinks they are losing money to used sales, they are gonna do something about it. That something is activation model DRMs like Steam and Day 1 DLC. So yeah, it does affect us.

    In every anti-DRM thread, people point out that DRM does nothing to halt piracy and is all about used sales and what not. Uhm... Hello used sales.
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  16. #76
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Pretty much. Because this was the entire rationale behind why I don't like Gamestop in the first place. Ah well, maybe if you think you steered the conversation here you'll listen.


    If a publisher thinks they are losing money to used sales, they are gonna do something about it. That something is activation model DRMs like Steam and Day 1 DLC. So yeah, it does affect us.

    In every anti-DRM thread, people point out that DRM does nothing to halt piracy and is all about used sales and what not. Uhm... Hello used sales.
    Used sales have been irrelevant in the PC space for almost 20 years now. Retailers stopped buying/selling used PC games because of the ease of piracy (install the game and return it/resell it).

    I don't like gamestop either, but not because they sell used games. I don't like them because of how they go about doing it. Their mark ups are way worse than your average pawn shop, selling games for 3x what they paid for them is fucked. What's even worse is that if you want cash instead of store credit they give you even less, there is a 15% (I think maybe it was 10%) fee for getting cash instead of store credit.

    I also don't like their annoying sales tactics where they try to shove strategy guides and pre-orders from random games down your throat every time you go in the store.

    So just to be clear. I like used games, I don't like gamestop.

  17. #77
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Used sales have been irrelevant in the PC space for almost 20 years now. Retailers stopped buying/selling used PC games because of the ease of piracy (install the game and return it/resell it).

    I don't like gamestop either, but not because they sell used games. I don't like them because of how they go about doing it. Their mark ups are way worse than your average pawn shop, selling games for 3x what they paid for them is fucked. What's even worse is that if you want cash instead of store credit they give you even less, there is a 15% (I think maybe it was 10%) fee for getting cash instead of store credit.

    I also don't like their annoying sales tactics where they try to shove strategy guides and pre-orders from random games down your throat every time you go in the store.

    So just to be clear. I like used games, I don't like gamestop.
    Yes... You are right, used games HAVE been irrelevant for a while in the PC space. Apologies, I forgot that we were completely disjoint from all console games and that there is no such thing as a port.

    And honestly, I fully agree with everything you just said. They are cannibalizing the industry while screwing over the customer. That is why I don't mind Gamefly because they at least don't screw over the customer while they are doing it. I don't like Gamefly, but I have nothing against them.
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  18. #78
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    The margins on new games are really slender, the way publishers gather their releases all into the fourth quarter bar a few exceptions leave stores low on good new product to sell throughout the rest of the year and the two big franchises (FIFA/COD - insert Madden for US?) are massively undercut by supermarkets who sell at a loss. Stores can't survive selling My Dress Up Doll Dance Party 7 Petz Hardest With Noel Edmunds in the meantime.

    There's a need to prop up those bricks and mortar stores somehow and selling Sonic figures and online codes isn't going to cut it.

    Retail still provides the biggest chunk of revenue to the mainstream games industry for now so I'm not sure how anyone can claim the stores contribute nothing to the industry. That's roughly 70% of money coming in there. That's not just taking stuff from the industry, that's feeding it.

    And of course, the second hand market does drive new game sales and it makes games affordable to a secondary market. Take that away entirely tomorrow and see what happens. Well, don't because for all its faults, I kinda like having a videogame industry that encompasses so many tiers from bedroom indie to behemoth corporation. And also don't because you're tacitly handing control over to the publishers who don't give a fuck about you. Retail (and Valve to a large degree) are buffers and for all those faults, having buffers between you and the megacorps is a bloody good thing.

    I'm not going to support Gamestop or UK equivalents because they're hardly good examples of how to run stores and treat customers but the idea that they're just leeches or that second hand sales are despicable or that this stuff is born in a void is absurd.

    The videogame industry isn't being crushed by second hand sales, it's growing year in, year out. You don't need to stop it.
    Last edited by RobF; 14-09-2012 at 04:07 AM.
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  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    The margins on new games are really slender, the way publishers gather their releases all into the fourth quarter bar a few exceptions leave stores low on good new product to sell throughout the rest of the year and the two big franchises (FIFA/COD - insert Madden for US?) are massively undercut by supermarkets who sell at a loss. Stores can't survive selling My Dress Up Doll Dance Party 7 Petz Hardest With Noel Edmunds in the meantime.

    There's a need to prop up those bricks and mortar stores somehow and selling Sonic figures and online codes isn't going to cut it.
    Yes, the margins on retail are crap and get crapper over time. In a lot of ways, that is a vicious cycle. Publishers perceive sales being lost to used game sales so they need to make up for it, which leads to more of an incentive for the store to sell used games.

    Retail still provides the biggest chunk of revenue to the mainstream games industry for now so I'm not sure how anyone can claim the stores contribute nothing to the industry. That's roughly 70% of money coming in there. That's not just taking stuff from the industry, that's feeding it.
    To my knowledge, nobody is saying that Gamestop contributes nothing to the industry (if they did, they are stupid. Or I mistyped ;p). What I have been saying is that they are a leech who is HURTING the industry. Big difference there.

    And of course, the second hand market does drive new game sales and it makes games affordable to a secondary market. Take that away entirely tomorrow and see what happens. Well, don't because for all its faults, I kinda like having a videogame industry that encompasses so many tiers from bedroom indie to behemoth corporation. And also don't because you're tacitly handing control over to the publishers who don't give a fuck about you. Retail (and Valve to a large degree) are buffers and for all those faults, having buffers between you and the megacorps is a bloody good thing.
    That's just it. Gamestop's markups on used games are so bad that it really doesn't make it more affordable to most people, it just gives the illusion of it. Those people would be just as able to game if they took five minutes to read the circular that comes with the sunday news paper (or just checked sites like CAG).

    I can't be arsed to go grab the link I posted earlier, but they are selling a new used game (released a few days ago) for 12 dollars off online, 5 dollars off in store. They are buying the new copies back for 30 dollars online. I can't be arsed to check, but if there is any day 1 DLC or online passes with that game, that is AT LEAST 5 dollars (probably closer to 10). And considering a lot of companies (especially console) tend to make Day 1 DLC a key part of the game (howdy Arkham City :p)...
    So basically, you get a used copy with no serial numbers for 10 dollars off. Or you check a website like CAG (or just go subscribe to the magazine of Toys R Us or Best Buy...) and you can probably get it 15 or even 20 dollars off within a month.
    Yeah, Gamestop is REALLY making games affordable to the market. Either that or they are preying on stupid people and the poor.

    Also, don't give me that crap that used games are required for a varied industry. As was mentioned before: Used games haven't really been an option in the PC market for 20 some odd years, and we have a MUCH wider variety than the consoles.

    I'm not going to support Gamestop or UK equivalents because they're hardly good examples of how to run stores and treat customers but the idea that they're just leeches or that second hand sales are despicable or that this stuff is born in a void is absurd.
    The only people arguing that second hand sales are despicable are the people who just want to pick fights with straw men. Pretty much everyone who has been bashing Gamestop here has said it is a matter of scale. Best Buy letting you buy used games on their website is one thing. Gamestop trying (and generally succeeding) at making people buy the used game over the new game is another thing entirely.

    The videogame industry isn't being crushed by second hand sales, it's growing year in, year out. You don't need to stop it.
    And, as I mentioned earlier, console gaming is stagnant and is largely not embracing digital distribution. While there are many reasons for that, Gamestop is a big one. And so long as they don't embrace digital distribution, they have no incentive to get rid of those huge markups (like has happened on a lot of PC exclusive titles...) and the customer is suffering.

    We shouldn't have to wait until the entire market crashes before people consider how to provide a better experience. Look at what happened to Borders (the book store).
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  20. #80
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    In this thread Gundato is an apologist for publishers, which is funny because publishers are not paying him to be so.

    ...or are they?
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

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