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  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    In this thread Gundato is an apologist for publishers, which is funny because publishers are not paying him to be so.

    ...or are they?
    Whatever you say Nally.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    That's just it. Gamestop's markups on used games are so bad that it really doesn't make it more affordable to most people, it just gives the illusion of it. Those people would be just as able to game if they took five minutes to read the circular that comes with the sunday news paper (or just checked sites like CAG).
    You're missing half of the equation though. They make games more affordable not just by selling them (slightly) cheaper but by offering an easy and convenient way for people to sell their old games. It's easy to say "just use Ebay" but that's ignoring people too young for a PayPal account entirely (who, on the anecdotal evidence of my eyes, tend to use the trade-in option the most).

    Stuff like day-one DLC, online passes and project $10 ... people get the idea these are trying to kill the secondhand market, and the inevitable conclusion is the next lot of consoles will have online activation. That won't happen, because that kill the gamestores, the ones that bring publishers 70% of their revenue.

    Project $10 was there purely to stop places like Gamestop from selling secondhand copies for just $10 less than new ones. It was to stop them taking the piss quite so much with the margins. Publishers don't want to kill secondhand, just regulate. Likewise DLC can make people keep hold of a game for longer. It's not to stop them selling it, it's to stop them selling it on for a few months so there are less secondhand copies about.

  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    You're missing half of the equation though. They make games more affordable not just by selling them (slightly) cheaper but by offering an easy and convenient way for people to sell their old games. It's easy to say "just use Ebay" but that's ignoring people too young for a PayPal account entirely (who, on the anecdotal evidence of my eyes, tend to use the trade-in option the most).

    Stuff like day-one DLC, online passes and project $10 ... people get the idea these are trying to kill the secondhand market, and the inevitable conclusion is the next lot of consoles will have online activation. That won't happen, because that kill the gamestores, the ones that bring publishers 70% of their revenue.

    Project $10 was there purely to stop places like Gamestop from selling secondhand copies for just $10 less than new ones. It was to stop them taking the piss quite so much with the margins. Publishers don't want to kill secondhand, just regulate. Likewise DLC can make people keep hold of a game for longer. It's not to stop them selling it, it's to stop them selling it on for a few months so there are less secondhand copies about.
    Currently brick and mortar is bringing 70% (I'll assume that number wasn't pulled out of your ass. It sounds right to me :p) for consoles. PC it is quite different. And I am sure that many publishers have seen how PC games are shifting to F2P models and even releasing "real" games at discount prices (Paradox has taken advantage of that). All of which cut down on overhead, increase profits, and give a LOT more control over the games to the publisher.

    And taking advantage of children (the aforementioned stupid people :p) is good in the sense that it lets them play more. But take a look at eBay and how much a lot of PSX games are going for. Odds are many of the buyers sold those and are now trying to get a copy again.
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  4. #84
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Currently brick and mortar is bringing 70% (I'll assume that number wasn't pulled out of your ass. It sounds right to me :p) for consoles. PC it is quite different. And I am sure that many publishers have seen how PC games are shifting to F2P models and even releasing "real" games at discount prices (Paradox has taken advantage of that). All of which cut down on overhead, increase profits, and give a LOT more control over the games to the publisher.

    And taking advantage of children (the aforementioned stupid people :p) is good in the sense that it lets them play more. But take a look at eBay and how much a lot of PSX games are going for. Odds are many of the buyers sold those and are now trying to get a copy again.
    F2P exists because it's more profitable for an online game than traditional models, it has nothing to do with piracy or used game sales.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    F2P exists because it's more profitable for an online game than traditional models, it has nothing to do with piracy or used game sales.
    Not necessarily. The latest incarnation of You Don't Know Jack is F2P, and that was previously a disc-based series.

  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    F2P exists because it's more profitable for an online game than traditional models, it has nothing to do with piracy or used game sales.
    No, it has to do with a shift away from brick and mortar stores. Please actually read what I post. Context matters.

    When you primarily rely on people buying stuff in stores ("Hey, this game next to MGS4 looks good. I'll get that too") you can't really take advantage of F2P and microtransactions.
    When you primarily rely on people buying stuff on the interweb, F2P is viable.
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  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    No, it has to do with a shift away from brick and mortar stores. Please actually read what I post. Context matters.

    When you primarily rely on people buying stuff in stores ("Hey, this game next to MGS4 looks good. I'll get that too") you can't really take advantage of F2P and microtransactions.
    When you primarily rely on people buying stuff on the interweb, F2P is viable.
    No it doesn't, it has to do with profit. F2P games are mainly a PC only thing, the shift away from boxed copies of PC games has nothing to do with piracy or used game sales. It has to do with profit margins.

  8. #88
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No it doesn't, it has to do with profit. F2P games are mainly a PC only thing, the shift away from boxed copies of PC games has nothing to do with piracy or used game sales. It has to do with profit margins.
    ...
    Yes. Good job. You are correct. Shifting away from brick and mortar increases profits. I am not sure why I couldn't figure that out on my own. Thank you for explaining that.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Currently brick and mortar is bringing 70% (I'll assume that number wasn't pulled out of your ass. It sounds right to me :p) for consoles. PC it is quite different. And I am sure that many publishers have seen how PC games are shifting to F2P models and even releasing "real" games at discount prices (Paradox has taken advantage of that). All of which cut down on overhead, increase profits, and give a LOT more control over the games to the publisher.

    All mockery aside (seriously dude, learn to read): You are damned right, it has to do with profit. PCs have largely abandoned brick and mortar stores (because they abandoned us) and as a result we have (some) cheaper games and models that are VERY good for the publisher (and somewhat good for us) like F2P models. And console game publishers aren't stupid (especially since most of them are PC game publishers too :p), they want to try and get in on that on the XBOX and the PlayStation too. But most attempts at weaning the customers off brick and mortar and onto DD get met with PR poo-storms and a refusal to stock merchandise (although, that may be changing).

    Seriously Hyper, I think you would actually read anything I posted (rather than zero'ing in on something you can rant about) you might find that we probably are saying the same thing at this point.
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  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    ...
    Yes. Good job. You are correct. Shifting away from brick and mortar increases profits. I am not sure why I couldn't figure that out on my own. Thank you for explaining that.
    We don't care about profits.

    That's what you're not getting.

    We're consumers, not shareholders. I don't get paid dividends when EA's fourth quarter is bullish.
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  10. #90
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    We don't care about profits.

    That's what you're not getting.

    We're consumers, not shareholders. I don't get paid dividends when EA's fourth quarter is bullish.
    Oh Nally. You scamp you.

    Let me just restate the logic so that people can refuse to read it again.

    Why a store's over-reliance and emphasis on used games is bad:
    It makes publishers (rightfully) feel that they are missing out on profits. This leads to a further reliance on activation model DRM and day 1 DLC

    Why are activation model DRMs and Day 1 DLC bad?:
    Activation model DRMs take away any ability to trade or sell used games at all (although, PC gaming seems to have done okay). And a lot of Day 1 DLC is stuff that rightfully should be in the game anyway (Arkham City) or is the Capcom approach that is even MORE insulting (google it, it is funny).

    Why Gamestop in Particular is bad with regard to used games:
    They really aren't saving the customer any money and are gouging everybody. I am not going to explain this part again. So basically they are pushing a sales model that screws over the industry AND the consumer.

    _____________

    Why Gamestop is hindering the shift to digital distribution:
    They have a history of refusing to stock titles/products if they have an emphasis on digital content (see the PSP Go). They are slowly changing this, but their approach is so laughable that I don't know how to feel

    Why do Publishers want digital distribution:
    It lowers overhead which increases profits and allows for things like F2P models which greatly increase profits

    Why do we care about a Publisher's profits from shifting to a DD-based sales model?:
    Because it is a lot harder to justify those super-high prices in a DD context, which leads to lower prices overall (see the PC...). And F2P models have the potential to allow us to spend a lot less on a game.

    Why do we care if console games shift to digital distribution?
    First off, a lot of us are gamers in general and LIKE some console games. But if the console game prices lower, the PC ports can have even lower prices too. Because nobody likes seeing their neighbor get a game for cheaper. You know how some publishers sell PC games at the 60 or 70 dollar price marks? That is so they don't piss off the console gamers

    Why do we care if console gamers are pissed off?
    We don't. But the publishers do, and the publishers make sure to spread the pain.
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  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Oh Nally. You scamp you.

    Let me just restate the logic so that people can refuse to read it again.

    Why a store's over-reliance and emphasis on used games is bad:
    It makes publishers (rightfully) feel that they are missing out on profits. This leads to a further reliance on activation model DRM and day 1 DLC

    Why are activation model DRMs and Day 1 DLC bad?:
    Activation model DRMs take away any ability to trade or sell used games at all (although, PC gaming seems to have done okay). And a lot of Day 1 DLC is stuff that rightfully should be in the game anyway (Arkham City) or is the Capcom approach that is even MORE insulting (google it, it is funny).

    Why Gamestop in Particular is bad with regard to used games:
    They really aren't saving the customer any money and are gouging everybody. I am not going to explain this part again. So basically they are pushing a sales model that screws over the industry AND the consumer.

    _____________

    Why Gamestop is hindering the shift to digital distribution:
    They have a history of refusing to stock titles/products if they have an emphasis on digital content (see the PSP Go). They are slowly changing this, but their approach is so laughable that I don't know how to feel

    Why do Publishers want digital distribution:
    It lowers overhead which increases profits and allows for things like F2P models which greatly increase profits

    Why do we care about a Publisher's profits from shifting to a DD-based sales model?:
    Because it is a lot harder to justify those super-high prices in a DD context, which leads to lower prices overall (see the PC...). And F2P models have the potential to allow us to spend a lot less on a game.

    Why do we care if console games shift to digital distribution?
    First off, a lot of us are gamers in general and LIKE some console games. But if the console game prices lower, the PC ports can have even lower prices too. Because nobody likes seeing their neighbor get a game for cheaper. You know how some publishers sell PC games at the 60 or 70 dollar price marks? That is so they don't piss off the console gamers

    Why do we care if console gamers are pissed off?
    We don't. But the publishers do, and the publishers make sure to spread the pain.
    Day 1 DLC has nothing to do with used games either.

    Activation DRM has nothing to do with used games either.

    How many console games have DRM like this? The only thing they have on consoles is those stupid "pay to play" codes where you have to pay $10 to play a game online if you purchased it used, which isn't so bad when you can pick up a lot of used online games for like 10 bucks in the first place.

  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    So, EA and Valve?
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  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Day 1 DLC has nothing to do with used games either.

    Activation DRM has nothing to do with used games either.

    How many console games have DRM like this? The only thing they have on consoles is those stupid "pay to play" codes where you have to pay $10 to play a game online if you purchased it used, which isn't so bad when you can pick up a lot of used online games for like 10 bucks in the first place.
    Huh, could have sworn people were saying DRM isn't to fight piracy it is to fight used games. Ah well

    And Day 1 DLC IS about used game sales. At least, it was for EA
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ea...llar-explained

    And EA are many things. Stupid is not one of them. So it is likely a lot of OTHER publishers feel the same way.


    And a lot of games for 10 bucks? Really? Have you ever SEEN Gamestop?

    http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/games/un...-thieves/73462
    Uncharted 2 came out a few years back. Gamestop is selling it used (online) for 18 bucks.

    Infamous 2: http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/games/infamous-2/78093
    Same price both ways

    Infamous 1: http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/games/infamous/71713
    But considering that one costs more new than Infamous 2 does, I find it questionable.

    That's the thing. Gamestop's used game prices tend to be, at most, 10 bucks off the new game price. And you can generally get a MUCH better deal if you just wait a few weeks for a sale from one of the chains.

    So yeah, paying 10 bucks for a "pay to play" code (Day 1 DLC by another name) isn't that bad if you are getting 10 dollars off anyway. But if that is the case, why not buy new? Or wait a few weeks and get the new game for 10 dollars off...
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  14. #94
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Huh, could have sworn people were saying DRM isn't to fight piracy it is to fight used games. Ah well

    And Day 1 DLC IS about used game sales. At least, it was for EA
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ea...llar-explained

    And EA are many things. Stupid is not one of them. So it is likely a lot of OTHER publishers feel the same way.


    And a lot of games for 10 bucks? Really? Have you ever SEEN Gamestop?

    http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/games/un...-thieves/73462
    Uncharted 2 came out a few years back. Gamestop is selling it used (online) for 18 bucks.

    Infamous 2: http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/games/infamous-2/78093
    Same price both ways

    Infamous 1: http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/games/infamous/71713
    But considering that one costs more new than Infamous 2 does, I find it questionable.

    That's the thing. Gamestop's used game prices tend to be, at most, 10 bucks off the new game price. And you can generally get a MUCH better deal if you just wait a few weeks for a sale from one of the chains.

    So yeah, paying 10 bucks for a "pay to play" code (Day 1 DLC by another name) isn't that bad if you are getting 10 dollars off anyway. But if that is the case, why not buy new? Or wait a few weeks and get the new game for 10 dollars off...
    Because gamestop is the only place you can get used games.

  15. #95
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Because gamestop is the only place you can get used games.
    They are the one I am talking about. Because I have nothing against used games in general, I have problems with Gamestop. As I have mentioned multiple times, Gamefly also thrives upon used games, but they at least don't screw over the customer in the process.

    Seriously dude. Stop "being clever" by throwing what I said a post ago in my face as though it were a new concept. Again, I think if you actually READ what I posted we would agree more.
    Last edited by gundato; 14-09-2012 at 08:45 PM. Reason: Edited in case my joke was misconstrued
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  16. #96
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    They are the one I am talking about. Because I have nothing against used games in general, I have problems with Gamestop. As I have mentioned multiple times, Gamefly also thrives upon used games, but they at least don't screw over the customer in the process.

    Seriously dude. Get help. Your illiteracy is REALLY getting problematic.
    No, I'm pretty sure you have been deriding used games in general throughout this thread, occasionally throwing in "I like gamefly" for no apparent reason to make it seem like you aren't just some used game Nazi.

    Quickly, go back and edit all your posts about DRM and day one DLC and how used games are destroying the industry though! DO IT NAO!

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, I'm pretty sure you have been deriding used games in general throughout this thread, occasionally throwing in "I like gamefly" for no apparent reason to make it seem like you aren't just some used game Nazi.

    Quickly, go back and edit all your posts about DRM and day one DLC and how used games are destroying the industry though! DO IT NAO!
    An un-lampshaded Godwin bomb? Really...

    And nah, if you go back and check my posts (and their context), you'll see I am pretty consistent. Used games in general are not great for the industry, but they have their uses. Like piracy. They provide access to games to people who might otherwise not have been able to enjoy them. And those people might eventually either buy DLC or buy a game later.
    But they also aren't good for the industry either and isn't really something that should be promoted. They just aren't hurting it to a noticeable degree (ie. a lot less than other factors).

    What I take issue with is companies like Gamestop that push "buy used" over "buy new" to an obscene degree AND who screw the customer over in the first place. If they pushed "Buy used, it is noticeably cheaper and better" like Gamefly does, I would be okay with it. But it is more "Trade in your old games and buy used to save 5 bucks, maybe." which is just hurting everyone. Because it takes sales away from the industry (I don't have Gamestop's sales figures, but if the CEO has spoken out that used games are good, I imagine it is a sizeable portion) ANd it hurts the consumer.

    And it doesn't help that there have been multiple "isolated incidents" over the years of some stores selling used games as though they were new. But the rise of serial numbers in console games have largely stopped that.

    What you are describing is what certain people (yourself included :p) posited as straw men. Its cool, I know you have trouble following along sometimes.
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  18. #98
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Seriously dude. Get help. Your illiteracy is REALLY getting problematic.
    What's that word that you used when you described how I treated people? Oh, right, like garbage.

    Now, I'm not saying you should stop with the snide remarks, oh no. Just own up to them!
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  19. #99
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    An un-lampshaded Godwin bomb? Really...

    And nah, if you go back and check my posts (and their context), you'll see I am pretty consistent. Used games in general are not great for the industry, but they have their uses. Like piracy. They provide access to games to people who might otherwise not have been able to enjoy them. And those people might eventually either buy DLC or buy a game later.
    But they also aren't good for the industry either and isn't really something that should be promoted. They just aren't hurting it to a noticeable degree (ie. a lot less than other factors).

    What I take issue with is companies like Gamestop that push "buy used" over "buy new" to an obscene degree AND who screw the customer over in the first place. If they pushed "Buy used, it is noticeably cheaper and better" like Gamefly does, I would be okay with it. But it is more "Trade in your old games and buy used to save 5 bucks, maybe." which is just hurting everyone. Because it takes sales away from the industry (I don't have Gamestop's sales figures, but if the CEO has spoken out that used games are good, I imagine it is a sizeable portion) ANd it hurts the consumer.

    And it doesn't help that there have been multiple "isolated incidents" over the years of some stores selling used games as though they were new. But the rise of serial numbers in console games have largely stopped that.

    What you are describing is what certain people (yourself included :p) posited as straw men. Its cool, I know you have trouble following along sometimes.
    You can't have both. Either everyone who sells used games is evil because it robs publishers of money and creates things like DRM and day one DLC or they aren't.

    You can hate gamestop for other reasons, but you need to take the other parts of your anti-gamestop argument out of the equation if you support other game re-sellers.

    Your repeated attempts to insult my intelligence are cute though, you should try to hide your insecurities a little better in the future.

  20. #100
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    In this thread Gundato is an apologist for publishers, which is funny because publishers are not paying him to be so.

    ...or are they?
    We all look forward to the day when you finally bring a counter argument to these forums instead of conspiracy fueled insinuations tbh. Do they not teach debate in the New York school system or something? It's laughable tbh.
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