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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    A game design mechanic can be terrible if implemented improperly, so the OP might have been referring to those terrible games in the past that used stat building as filler.
    Which games had stat building as filler? Can you name them please?

    Quote Originally Posted by thesisko View Post
    What of me then? I played Fallout 1 after Fallout 3 and preferred the former. I first played the infinity engine games after I already played KOTOR and thought the combat was more fun and the exploration immensely more rewarding.
    This just means you've got decent taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    The problem is when they use it as a crutch. When they have crappy models and say they are going for an "old school" vibe. When they have poor pacing and cite how we used to grind all the time in RPGs. That is bad design, which makes for bad games.
    Actually, grinding is largely a myth in western RPGs. Only certain old dungeon crawlers ever required it. It was only ever prevalent in Japanese RPGs. For example, in the Gold Box games you tend to hit the level cap way before you reach the final boss, sort of like in Baldur's Gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    1) Nostalgia is most commonly understood to be the feeling when someone mis-remembers something from their past to be better than it actually was.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    The tactical combat of Dragon Age? Said in a positive light?

    Eww, I feel like I need to wash my eyes.
    This.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Which games had stat building as filler? Can you name them please?
    I made a whole thread about it: JRPGs
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    I made a whole thread about it: JRPGs
    Oh, okay. I thought we were talking about PC games in the PC gaming forum. Fair enough then, but JRPGs fucking suck.

  4. #24
    Lesser Hivemind Node Feldspar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    The tactical combat of Dragon Age? Said in a positive light?

    Eww, I feel like I need to wash my eyes.
    You know, that's what twigged with me, too. I think the combat was why I never finished Dragon Age; I was enjoying the story, the setting was different enough (although it relied on several fantasy staples so as not to alienate the faithful), but something in the mechanics was just not right for me.

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Oh, okay. I thought we were talking about PC games in the PC gaming forum. Fair enough then, but JRPGs fucking suck.
    I'm giving The Last Story and Xenoblade Chronicles a chance this month (on a PC) but in general, can't argue with you on that point.
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  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Hey, high five. I didn't finish dragon age either.

    The wife played it multiple times, also in ME3 I liked the original ending(the remade ending was terrible) ,she was outraged.

    We don't talk about Bioware anymore.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feldspar View Post
    You know, that's what twigged with me, too. I think the combat was why I never finished Dragon Age; I was enjoying the story, the setting was different enough (although it relied on several fantasy staples so as not to alienate the faithful), but something in the mechanics was just not right for me.
    Probably something to do with it being very similar to what World of Warcraft would be like if you controlled multiple characters.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Probably something to do with it being very similar to what World of Warcraft would be like if you controlled multiple characters.
    I never played WoW but dragon age was like guild wars sans any kind of strategy. Also no coop.

    If the combat had been like guild wars with multiple characters I would have drank it up.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    This was the worst bit of the article for me and one of the worst things I've read on RPS. There's just so many things to get angry about here. Firstly, like you said yourself, people don't want old CRPGs due to their graphics or interface. People want them because of their superior and more complex gameplay, without as much influence from other genres like cover shooters. Secondly, "numbers everywhere" is both very misleading and also not necessarily a bad thing at all. I mean, I can't think of many CRPGs with "numbers everywhere". In fact, the Ultima games only had around 3 statistics and they are the most praised "old school" RPGs from the DOS era. And of course, why is "numbers everywhere" a bad thing? Getting rid of lots of attributes and skills and streamlining character development (by introducing things like skill trees) is one of the key reasons why modern RPGs are dumbed down in the first place.
    Yep. I tried the fan made remake of UFO (called UFO:AI). I had more fun with that then I'm expecting with X-COM. Why? Well, it's not the broken game engine, buggy levels, poor animations and dire artwork. It's the depth and gameplay. The game has so many options and just "works" as a game. I've dropped it since cos those bugs were big. But I'd prefer that game with the X-COM artwork any day for it's depth.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Actually, grinding is largely a myth in western RPGs. Only certain old dungeon crawlers ever required it. It was only ever prevalent in Japanese RPGs. For example, in the Gold Box games you tend to hit the level cap way before you reach the final boss, sort of like in Baldur's Gate.
    .
    Agreed, but that doesn't stop people from claiming it makes something "old school". So it is easier to include it under that category and just attribute it to "nostalgia" as it were :p
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  11. #31
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Yeah but as far as I know, though xcom suffers from streamlining, Itll still be equally or more tactical thanthe original.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    The tactical combat of Dragon Age? Said in a positive light?

    Eww, I feel like I need to wash my eyes.
    DA:O was proof, to me, that "tactical combat" is still inextricably tied with "clunky interface" in RPGs, or at least that some game designers connote the latter with the former.

    DA2's combat was, for me, a great deal more fun, even if the story wasn't as epic or far-reaching.
    Last edited by Nalano; 05-10-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    DA:O's combat was not that bad. It wasn't amazing, but it wasn't that bad. It just reflected a change toward an emphasis on AI scripts (which the BG-era combat DID have). If anything, I think it emphasized positioning a lot more, at the cost of lessened control (unless you did a LOT of pausing). But, at the same time, you didn't HAVE to control everyone on every single turn.

    DA2's combat was fun to watch, but it really suffered from blatantly spawning enemies right behind you. So any opportunity for positioning was rendered pointless when the next wave rolled in.
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  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    This thread:


  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    This thread:

    Come on dude, I'm just chuffed we're onto the 2nd page of a thread without someone calling the other a misanthropic, Nazi, communist, feminist, capitalist, DA2-loving pleb. There's hope for the RPS forums yet!!!!!

  16. #36
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    Basically, were at the discussion again about what should RPGs be. Recently, since everyone has shooter skills, the RPGs turned very shooty, because its assumed that players have a firm grip on them, and they are not interested in nonshootery RPGs.

    But as Wiz is promoting, the actual work should be in the characters hands, not in the players. And this is what a lot of modern games seem to be forgetting. Youre not playing a character, really, youre just playing an awesome version of you.

    Which is fine, but the awesome version of you should move and do in a way which is befitting the character, not you.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Basically, were at the discussion again about what should RPGs be. Recently, since everyone has shooter skills, the RPGs turned very shooty, because its assumed that players have a firm grip on them, and they are not interested in nonshootery RPGs.

    But as Wiz is promoting, the actual work should be in the characters hands, not in the players. And this is what a lot of modern games seem to be forgetting. Youre not playing a character, really, youre just playing an awesome version of you.

    Which is fine, but the awesome version of you should move and do in a way which is befitting the character, not you.
    I think you are mistaking "character sheet" with "character".
    Chaotic Evil Halfling Ranger with a pet cat, two daggers, and abysmal wisdom is a character sheet
    Belkar Bitterleaf, the Sexy Shoeless God of War, is a character

    People roleplay without character sheets all the time (I am not a fan, if only because I like the structure and limitations the sheet provides) and instead rely solely on their acting abilities and the like.
    Others are munchkins who will only help an old lady cross the street if they are guaranteed to get an XP bonus.

    Older (C)RPGs definitely were about the character sheet. The only thing that differentiated your fighter and your mage were their classes. They had no personality.
    Around the BG-era, the shift toward roleplaying the character became the norm, with the sheet just used for gameplay mechanics.
    These days, for many RPGs it is all about the character, with the sheet being almost useless.

    In Mass Effect: You are Commander Shepard
    In The Witcher: You are Geralt of Rivia
    In Baldurs Gate: You are Gorion's Ward
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  18. #38
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I think you are mistaking "character sheet" with "character".
    Chaotic Evil Halfling Ranger with a pet cat, two daggers, and abysmal wisdom is a character sheet
    Belkar Bitterleaf, the Sexy Shoeless God of War, is a character

    People roleplay without character sheets all the time (I am not a fan, if only because I like the structure and limitations the sheet provides) and instead rely solely on their acting abilities and the like.
    Others are munchkins who will only help an old lady cross the street if they are guaranteed to get an XP bonus.

    Older (C)RPGs definitely were about the character sheet. The only thing that differentiated your fighter and your mage were their classes. They had no personality.
    Around the BG-era, the shift toward roleplaying the character became the norm, with the sheet just used for gameplay mechanics.
    These days, for many RPGs it is all about the character, with the sheet being almost useless.

    In Mass Effect: You are Commander Shepard
    In The Witcher: You are Geralt of Rivia
    In Baldurs Gate: You are Gorion's Ward
    No, Im not. a character sheet should be what the character is about, in all its actions.

    Sure, you could argue "but then, why the player at all? isnt the player "playing" the character?, we could just let AIs take over and watch a movie of a game playing itself!!!111".

    True, but the trick lies within letting players play the character as the character, not as an extension of the player. If you let a player shoot someone, in a shooting portion of the game, it relies on 1) your ability to use the mouse/keyboard equipment to its fullest so you can accurately do what the character should do and 2) your knowledge of shooting portions in games.

    What it should rely on is: whether or not the character would shoot that way, no matter the shooting mechanics.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    No, Im not. a character sheet should be what the character is about, in all its actions.

    Sure, you could argue "but then, why the player at all? isnt the player "playing" the character?, we could just let AIs take over and watch a movie of a game playing itself!!!111".

    True, but the trick lies within letting players play the character as the character, not as an extension of the player. If you let a player shoot someone, in a shooting portion of the game, it relies on 1) your ability to use the mouse/keyboard equipment to its fullest so you can accurately do what the character should do and 2) your knowledge of shooting portions in games.

    What it should rely on is: whether or not the character would shoot that way, no matter the shooting mechanics.
    Well, Shepard in particular is a highly trained commando, so she knows how to shoot. The player is aiming for her, that is it.

    Geralt is an amazingly talented swordsman, so he can make slicey slicey.

    "Real" roleplaying depends on the player too.
    No matter how good your rogue is at detecting traps, the player has to bother to look for them.
    No matter how skilled your warrior is, the player has to say who to stab and when.
    No matter how intelligent your wizard is, the player has to buy spells, know when to use them, and hopefully be smart enough to give the DM opportunities to roll against your learnings.
    No matter how well endowed your character is, you still have to tell Abed that you want to bind the elf's arms and cudle for the appropriate amount of time.
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  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    But as Wiz is promoting, the actual work should be in the characters hands, not in the players
    Progress quest?
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