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  1. #61
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    I shall call it "The Predator Complex"

    Expect a publication in December's Nature.

  2. #62
    Network Hub Makariel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    You're on the outside peering in, the ultimate voyeur, but here at last you are also in control. This sings out to the video game nerd, who goes through life as if in his own personal patch of shadows. Here at last, this social construct designed to exclude us from society is inverted, and we gain all the benefits.
    Interesting. I never looked at it this way, but as a rather archaic gameplay mechanic which results in sometimes hilarious video-gamey-situations when a guard basically slams his crotch against my avatars head repeatedly but can't see the culprit because the light-meter says so. But I also get detached quite easy from the game world when something happens that doesn't make sense to me. Like not being able to move like a normal person in Resident Evil. Or when the world stops working just because I don't walk to the next trigger in Call of Duty. Hence I always found the light-meter-stealth system in Thief a bit odd.

    Line of sight based stealth, on the other hand, leaves you entirely at the mercy of the guards and their patrols. You move at their pace. You go where they allow you. You step in time to their march or you die. It's stressful, it grinds you down, until you're dancing to the whirr-whirr-whirr of the modern corporate machine. There's no freedom here, just the demand of mainstream society: conform or perish.
    Yes, LOS-based stealth is more about rhythm. It's the guitar hero amongst stealth systems. But a well made LOS-based stealth system doesn't make you the slave of the machine. You are the disturbing factor, taking out parts of the machine piece by piece, destroying the construct in the process. I like analyzing seemingly perfect running systems and then disturb them, dismantle or subvert them.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    You're in control. You can watch the little rats scurrying here and there on their patrols, but they can't see you, they can't find you.
    Poetry aside, Dishonoured has a "Dark Vision" mode that lets you see enemies and their vision cones through walls. So you can still watch enemies before they can see you.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makariel View Post
    Interesting. I never looked at it this way, but as a rather archaic gameplay mechanic which results in sometimes hilarious video-gamey-situations when a guard basically slams his crotch against my avatars head repeatedly but can't see the culprit because the light-meter says so. But I also get detached quite easy from the game world when something happens that doesn't make sense to me. Like not being able to move like a normal person in Resident Evil. Or when the world stops working just because I don't walk to the next trigger in Call of Duty. Hence I always found the light-meter-stealth system in Thief a bit odd.
    In Deadly Shadows they introduced a couple of things to stop these events: if you bump into a guard or a guard bumps into you, they detect you; also if they get close enough they automatically see you---effectively, it's LOS-only stealth at very short distances. Any new light-based stealth game should use both these features to eliminate such odd behaviour.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    I like the part where me stating that hype from reviews is not a valid metric to judge the quality of a game by, and that it's probably wise to wait and see what friends/gamers think (as is always the case), immediately got interpreted as me hating on the game (and for the sake of hating on games to boot).
    Hmm: -

    Guess we'll hear in a few days if it's any good at all, PR mouthpiece opinions are about as valuable as shit at a pigfarm.
    Somehow the former statement seems to bear zero resemblance to the latter. The good folks at RPS give you this forum to post in gratis and you use it as a platform to disparage them wholesale....
    Last edited by Kadayi; 09-10-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    See, hopefully this is what i expected all FPS games to turn into after SS2 / Deus Ex.

    Actually, is it weird that i'm kind of surprised that it's getting great scores? I half expected modern reviewers to be unimpressed by that type of gameplay.

    I didnot expect that high score knowing corrupt mainstream media only praise games like COD.

  7. #67
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    This isn't about gameplay or bribes. It's all about pedigre and hype. Games like Dishonored, made by that one guy and that other team and published by oh hey it's these guys simply don't get low scores because their reputation preceeds them. It's just too big of a title to give a low score to and all professional game journalists "know" this.

    It's easy to bash videogames more or less anonymously on the Internet - I know it all too well - but if reviewing is your job and the bread on your table depends on it you're likely to at least play it safe, or more commonly just go with the flow. For example many of people here bash Call of Duty games, but if you worked full time as a game journalist in, say, Eurogamer, would you really have the nerve to give a game that sells 4.7 million copies in 24 hours a low score? Or even a lukewarm one like 6-7/10?

  8. #68
    Network Hub Makariel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    In Deadly Shadows they introduced a couple of things to stop these events: if you bump into a guard or a guard bumps into you, they detect you; also if they get close enough they automatically see you---effectively, it's LOS-only stealth at very short distances. Any new light-based stealth game should use both these features to eliminate such odd behaviour.
    Ah, ok. Agreed there. I didn't play Deadly Shadows for some reason I can't remember. Maybe I should remedy that.
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  9. #69
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    @Mohorovicic

    A reviewers job is not to 'bash' things though, it's to assess them against the marketplace. Like it or not plain truth of the matter is games like the MW series are well made gaming experiences, thus why they score high (as games they are extremely well crafted). They might not be your particular cup of tea, but that's not a valid criteria to assess them by.

    As regards reputation. Generally it's the case that when someones been doing something for a while, they tend to possess a degree of competence at it, and rarely end up shitting the bed. Sure it can happen (Prometheus is a good example), but it tends to be the exception rather than the rule.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 09-10-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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    Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Welcome Diesel,didn't expect you here so soon xD

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    @Mohorovicic

    A reviewers job is not to 'bash' things though, it's to assess them against the marketplace. Like it or not plain truth of the matter is games like the MW series are well made gaming experiences, thus why they score high (as games they are extremely well crafted). They might not be your particular cup of tea, but that's not a valid criteria to assess them by.
    It's a little bit of both I think. Big AAA games are for the most part certainly well made if 'safe' gaming experiences, so there's really no need to bash them for that or review those games badly out of spite. On the other hand, you can't really deny that certain names, be it developers, franchises or publishers, seem to have a bit of a bonus attached when it comes down to pinning a score to a game, which a less well known name wouldn't get.

  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    I dunno, Syndicate and Medal of Honor scored comparatively low (70s I think, but in this day and age that's a bit of death sentence for a game) Dante's Inferno too...I don't think it's so much reviews being bought out, just rather the whole issue of scores themselves.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    Welcome Diesel,didn't expect you here so soon xD
    thanks man. new GT suck and its now ghost town. MODS ruined that place. I got banned for dumbest reason ever. for hating Final Fantasy game. lol
    Last edited by Diesel-; 09-10-2012 at 01:13 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    For example many of people here bash Call of Duty games, but if you worked full time as a game journalist in, say, Eurogamer, would you really have the nerve to give a game that sells 4.7 million copies in 24 hours a low score? Or even a lukewarm one like 6-7/10?
    Yes, if I didn't like it. Though first I would tell my editor that I'm probably not the best person for that review as it's not my sort of game, and I don't have much experience with them.

    Also, this is RPS, who slated the last Call of Duty, and have even criticised the more 'sophisticated' critical darlings like New Vegas.

  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    It's a little bit of both I think. Big AAA games are for the most part certainly well made if 'safe' gaming experiences, so there's really no need to bash them for that or review those games badly out of spite. On the other hand, you can't really deny that certain names, be it developers, franchises or publishers, seem to have a bit of a bonus attached when it comes down to pinning a score to a game, which a less well known name wouldn't get.
    I think we've had some examples of disconnect between reviewer opinion Vs player opinion (Mass Effect 3 being the most notable one) by I'd say in large that's because the focus for reviewers puts far greater emphasis on gameplay mechanics rather than storyline. Mechanistically ME3 is a pretty solid gaming experience and by that criteria alone it kind of justifies its high scores. The fact that the last ten minutes ruined the storyline for a great many people who were heavily invested in it from a narrative perspective wasn't something that reviewers were necessarily looking at. Do I think they were all paid off shills? No. I just don't think that for many of them storyline continuity was that big issue, because by on large they're nowhere near as invested in the game and the characters as your avid ME fan whose got multiple playthroughs of the first two games under their belt.

    Personally I'd like to see storyline assessment play a much bigger role in the reviews system, where applicable (RPGs, Action adventure, etc), because increasingly technical constraints are less and less of an issue, but that's only going to happen over time.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I think we've had some examples of disconnect between reviewer opinion Vs player opinion (Mass Effect 3 being the most notable one) by I'd say in large that's because the focus for reviewers puts far greater emphasis on gameplay mechanics rather than storyline. Mechanistically ME3 is a pretty solid gaming experience and by that criteria alone it kind of justifies its high scores. The fact that the last ten minutes ruined the storyline for a great many people who were heavily invested in it from a narrative perspective wasn't something that reviewers were necessarily looking at.
    There's something in reviewing methodology in that case too. As you play, you fill a notebook with observations and comments about the game. The last entry in that notebook might be "Ending: fucking awful". For a lot of players, that's their last experience with the game, from which they form an impression. But the reviewer then has to go back over the notebook, revisit all the awesome bits (both mechanical and story/character) from earlier in the game. Indeed, I'd argue they wouldn't be doing their job if they let the ending overshadow the rest of the game.

  17. #77
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    In LOS stealth if you can "disturb" guards by throwing a rock, or tapping a wall (or whistling like Sam Fisher) then it great. You are surfing the principles of the AI, leave a door open just so the guard goes to check it, switch off a light or move a box so a guard walks around it (or prods it suspiciously). All valid.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Well, sense isn't interesting to me at all. I've only ever enjoying light-based stealth games.

    With light-based stealth, things move at your pace. You're in control. You can watch the little rats scurrying here and there on their patrols, but they can't see you, they can't find you. You're on the outside peering in, the ultimate voyeur, but here at last you are also in control. This sings out to the video game nerd, who goes through life as if in his own personal patch of shadows. Here at last, this social construct designed to exclude us from society is inverted, and we gain all the benefits. What's the best part of Thief? Not the blackjacking, not the stealing. It's standing right next to two guards having a conversation about you. The ultimate voyeur. And isn't it beautiful that Garrett is perhaps the weakest FPS protagonist ever, but is also the most powerful? Hell, the lore of Thief has the Keepers possessing not magical powers, just the knack of making everyone ignoring them. They're elevated being a social misfit to an art form.

    Line of sight based stealth, on the other hand, leaves you entirely at the mercy of the guards and their patrols. You move at their pace. You go where they allow you. You step in time to their march or you die. It's stressful, it grinds you down, until you're dancing to the whirr-whirr-whirr of the modern corporate machine. There's no freedom here, just the demand of mainstream society: conform or perish.
    Actually, that's not entirely true. In Thief, if there was a room highly iluminated and the guard was patroling on the other side, you didn't always have the chance to take him down in a stealthy way (first mission is the one that comes to my mind, the room in which you can steal the valuable things by going up in an elevator for food, don't remember its name in English). You were still on the guards' hands.

    In Dishonored, anyway, there a mix between the two modes. As in Thief, you can look around a corner without being seen, or stay in the shadow (but at a logical distance), from where you still hear them, and you can look through keyholes listening to every single word. I've done a lot of eavesdropping in just the first missions of Dishonored, (the tutorial levels and the pub), and some of them were even completely casual. I was walking around the pub, and, when going for about the fourth time around the same corner, I heard two characters talking. I looked around the corner, and there they were, talking about wether they trusted me or not. And it felt real! I don't need to stay in the shadows just inches away from somebody to feel like the perfect voyeur, and in control...

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexClockwork View Post
    Actually, that's not entirely true. In Thief, if there was a room highly iluminated and the guard was patroling on the other side, you didn't always have the chance to take him down in a stealthy way (first mission is the one that comes to my mind, the room in which you can steal the valuable things by going up in an elevator for food, don't remember its name in English).
    That was Thief 2. And don't forget that you could distract guards to force them to move/look away.

    Also to set record straight: if an enemy walks into you in Thief - so that his model touches yours - you WILL be detected no matter how deep the shadow you're in is.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    That was Thief 2. And don't forget that you could distract guards to force them to move/look away.
    OK, but that's not because of the light/shadows system, that's what I mean. You can do the same in a LOS system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Also to set record straight: if an enemy walks into you in Thief - so that his model touches yours - you WILL be detected no matter how deep the shadow you're in is.
    Of course. But they can still be inches away from you and don't give a shit. I tried Thief (only the second, sorry) recently and I loved it (not as much as Dishonored, for the moment, but I have to play more of both), but it's not realistic at all.

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